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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Acceptable Fish/Native fish (GardenLit@aol.com)
2. Re: Frogs are better than fish! (Lynn Jenkins)
3. responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
(GardenLit@aol.com)
4. Re: work for free (Carol Wallace, Ph.D.)
5. Re: responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
(Duane Campbell)
6. Re: responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
(GardenLit@aol.com)
7. Re: responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
(Lon J. Rombough)
8. Re: responsible use of plants and animals in ponds (Marge Talt)
9. Mea culpa (Lon J. Rombough)
10. Re: Mea culpa (Larry Maupin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 12:25:21 EST
From: GardenLit@aol.com
Subject: Re: [GWL] Acceptable Fish/Native fish
To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <43.19ab2deb.2ba4bc01@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Some states have laws against using native fish (not sure whether it
has to
do with capturing them or stocking them) which complicates the issue.
The
Sunday Telegraph (Portland Press, ME) ran a good article on fish for
water
gardens, pointing out state law banning goldfish, and recommending some
native fish, the kind of article I wish more people would write. It
was in
the last year, unfortunately I didn't save it.
I'll try to fish it out of a newspaper database I have access to.
The same concerns about what makes a plant native apply to fish, and
their
ecology and habits are not well understood by the typical gardener, so
be
careful about introducing "native" fish to waters it is not suited to
or
waters it too might "invade".
Sally
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 12:33:16 -0500
From: Lynn Jenkins <jenks@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: [GWL] Frogs are better than fish!
To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
<gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030315123127.02f79088@iquest.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
And I repeat my previous thought: why bother with fish (native or not)
when
you can have frogs and fathead minnows. Frogs are MUCH more enjoyable
than
fish.
Lynn
Gardening WITH Nature
At 12:25 PM 3/15/2003, you wrote:
Some states have laws against using native fish (not sure whether it
has to
do with capturing them or stocking them) which complicates the issue.
The
Sunday Telegraph (Portland Press, ME) ran a good article on fish for
water
gardens, pointing out state law banning goldfish, and recommending
some
native fish, the kind of article I wish more people would write. It
was in
the last year, unfortunately I didn't save it.
I'll try to fish it out of a newspaper database I have access to.
The same concerns about what makes a plant native apply to fish, and
their
ecology and habits are not well understood by the typical gardener,
so be
careful about introducing "native" fish to waters it is not suited to
or
waters it too might "invade".
Sally
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:11:58 EST
From: GardenLit@aol.com
Subject: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <147.cfe1aee.2ba4f11e@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Lynn is right. Putting any fish in water gardens is too risky
ecologically.
These are good sites to read.
http://aquahabitat.com/invasive.species.html
http://www.nativefish.org/ponder/index.html
has email forum to discuss pros and cons
Sally
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:07:46 -0500
From: "Carol Wallace, Ph.D." <gardenwriter@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [GWL] work for free
To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
<gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <3E73A432.6060209@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=IBM850; format=flowed
I am getting an advance from Timber Press - as well as a slight photo
allowance. So it does happen.
Carol
Marty Wingate wrote:
Friend or not, if you are contributing to the book, you should be
paid. Timber Press does not give any advances (perhaps someone knows
of an actual exception to this rule?), so your writer-friend doesn't
have anything up front to give you from that stash (yes, advances are
so huge for garden writers), but you should still get a flat fee for
the writing (I have no experience with selling photos).
--
Virtually Gardening
http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/virtually_gardening
Sign up for Coping with Fibromyalgia at SuiteU starting March 13
http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/16603/overview/79
or Stenciling 101 also beginning on March 3
http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/17265/seminar
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 18:07:08 -0500
From: Duane Campbell <dcamp911@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Cc: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20030315.201115.-221129.10.dcamp911@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:11:58 EST GardenLit@aol.com writes:
Lynn is right. Putting any fish in water gardens is too risky
Should I also get rid of my dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds, all
non-native species?
D
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:39:08 EST
From: GardenLit@aol.com
Subject: Re: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <65.c875e72.2ba52fbc@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 3/16/03 1:09:56 AM, dcamp911@juno.com writes:
<< Should I also get rid of my dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds,
all
non-native species?
Do your dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds live in ponds? If yes,
then I
suggest you give them up.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 18:01:42 -0800
From: "Lon J. Rombough" <lonrom@hevanet.com>
Subject: Re: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
<gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BA991B06.C196%lonrom@hevanet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This was a facetious comment (and I might have hollered about it) but
it
makes a serious point. Not everyone is really aware of what is and
isn't
native. Some invaders have been around long enough few people know
they ARE
invaders. Bullfrogs, for example, are not native to a lot of the
country,
but they have been spread so thoroughly that most people think they ARE
native. They are highly adaptible and will eat anything they can get
in
their mouths, including their own tadpoles, so they get along nearly
anywhere.
The most important thing about all this, I think, isn't so much the
introduction of non-natives as the loss of natives due to shrinking
habitat.
Many natives are losing out because the kinds of places they need to
live
are disappearing, while the invaders can use places the natives can't.
Here in Oregon the whole Willamette Valley was a wetland when the
settlers
came. Indians could scoop up the native frogs with baskets, they were
so
thick. Now, with channeling and draining, there are only isolated
pockets
of the species because the kind of habitat they need is all converted
to
farmland, while the bullfrogs can use any pond, drainage ditch, etc.
to live
in. In places where the right kind of wetlands exist, the bullfrogs
don't
hurt the natives because they can't get that many of them, and the
native
frogs breed and are out of the pond before the bullfrogs even get
active.
Pardon the ramble, but the point is that putting goldfish in a pond
is
NOT going to make that much difference in the long run. If you really
want
to help, create a native wetland on your land that the true native
species
can live in. Instead of trying to keep the invaders out, give the
natives
what they really need and they can usually hold their own quite well.
-Lon Rombough
<< Should I also get rid of my dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds,
all
non-native species?
Do your dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds live in ponds? If yes,
then I
suggest you give them up.
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 22:14:17 -0500
From: "Marge Talt" <mtalt@hort.net>
Subject: Re: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
To: "Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum"
<gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <E18uObI-0002oN-00@scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Very well put, Lon (therefore I am including the entire post for
those who may not have read it). The points you make are points that
seem to get lost in the 'native only' debate. Our "natives" (plants
and animals) often require very specific conditions to survive. Once
humans change those conditions, the natives can't survive and the
exotics, who can survive, move in. What needs to happen is less
human disturbance of the various ecosystems; then what is native
might have a chance. Banning non-native animals and plants will not
solve the problems we have created.
Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland
mtalt@hort.net
Editor: Gardening in Shade
-----------------------------------------------
Current Article: Wild, Wonderful Aroids Part 4 - Arisaema
http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening
------------------------------------------------
Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date
http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html
------------------------------------------------
All Suite101.com garden topics :
http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635
----------
From: Lon J. Rombough <lonrom@hevanet.com>
This was a facetious comment (and I might have hollered about it) but
it
makes a serious point. Not everyone is really aware of what is and
isn't
native. Some invaders have been around long enough few people know
they ARE
invaders. Bullfrogs, for example, are not native to a lot of the
country,
but they have been spread so thoroughly that most people think they
ARE
native. They are highly adaptible and will eat anything they can get
in
their mouths, including their own tadpoles, so they get along nearly
anywhere.
The most important thing about all this, I think, isn't so much
the
introduction of non-natives as the loss of natives due to shrinking
habitat.
Many natives are losing out because the kinds of places they need to
live
are disappearing, while the invaders can use places the natives
can't.
Here in Oregon the whole Willamette Valley was a wetland when the
settlers
came. Indians could scoop up the native frogs with baskets, they
were so
thick. Now, with channeling and draining, there are only isolated
pockets
of the species because the kind of habitat they need is all converted
to
farmland, while the bullfrogs can use any pond, drainage ditch, etc.
to live
in. In places where the right kind of wetlands exist, the bullfrogs
don't
hurt the natives because they can't get that many of them, and the
native
frogs breed and are out of the pond before the bullfrogs even get
active.
Pardon the ramble, but the point is that putting goldfish in a
pond is
NOT going to make that much difference in the long run. If you
really want
to help, create a native wetland on your land that the true native
species
can live in. Instead of trying to keep the invaders out, give the
natives
what they really need and they can usually hold their own quite well.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:07:24 -0800
From: "Lon J. Rombough" <lonrom@hevanet.com>
Subject: [GWL] Mea culpa
To: GWL <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BA994626.C1A6%lonrom@hevanet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Having lectured the list on moving non-writing topics to the new
gardening list, I have to apologize for not having done it myself. The
thread on non-natives hit a nerve, and while it was germaine to garden
writing in one way, since it reflected a viewpoint that garden writers
might
consider, it was still too far off the writing mark to really be well
suited
to the list.
Which brings the second point of this letter - the new organic
gardening
list.
I would like to know, offlist if need be, what would provide the
incentive to the group to carry garden-type threads over to the new
list,
which was started to allow such discussions to continue without
overloading
the Garden WRITING list. I've moved a few such threads, but no one
seems
to continue them once they are moved. As I've said before, THIS list
was
created for garden WRITING, but we are in serious danger of letting it
slip
into being just a garden list.
Frankly, I'd just as soon kill the list as let it become just
another
gardening list.
We're all human, and very nice ones, too. But we ALL must maintain
the
discipline of keeping the list on topic and running cleanly if we want
it to
live up to it's full potential. Besides the fact that I don't like
having
to be the "heavy" to keep it running.
Please, folks, help me out.
-Lon Rombough, list founder
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 02:08:42 -0600
From: Larry Maupin <larrymaupin@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [GWL] Mea culpa
To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
<gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BA998D2A.7CD9%larrymaupin@sbcglobal.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
on 3/15/03 11:07 PM, Lon J. Rombough at lonrom@hevanet.com wrote:
As I've said before, THIS list was
created for garden WRITING, but we are in serious danger of letting
it slip
into being just a garden list.
Lon -
I think we all greatly appreciate your continued effort to manage this
list.
Thank you! And I agree with your desire to keep gardening related chat
on
the Organic list, but I have a different perspective about the Garden
Writers' list. After 30 years in the nursery business and 4 years as a
part-time garden writer/photographer, I still feel like a novice much
of the
time on the Garden Writer's list. I have a lot to learn about the
garden
writing business, and, more to the point, I have a lot to learn about
many
of the important issues that we all discuss and write about, such as
our
recent invasive plant/fish thread. I'm looking at that issue from the
perspective of a garden writer, not as a gardener. I'm learning about
it so
I can write about it. I've communicated both on and off list with
people who
are informed about the issues, and I appreciate their opinions which
shape
my own.
The other gardening lists I'm on or have been on don't begin to touch
the
depth of discussion we enjoy here, which includes many of the finest
and
most knowledgeable gardeners in the world. I've been the "big fish" in
a
little garden list pond and learned very little (but I did so to share
my
knowledge). Even the bigger gardening lists with many hundreds of
members
seem chatty and shallow compared to the Garden Writers' list. I'd
rather be
a little fish in the bigger pond of garden writers.
As another example, I remember a thread on heirloom tomatoes a while
back, a
topic I'm not particularly interested in. However, as the discussion
went on
for a few days, I gained an insight into an aspect of this gardening
industry that had eluded me previously. Lists of varieties, sources,
names
of books and their publishers and authors, links to more info,
comments from
experts -- all of it added to my storehouse of horticultural
knowledge. I
would bet that the best of the gardening sites on the web could not
touch
the quality of information on heirloom tomatoes that we received from
this
list.
I have shared ideas with other professional photographers on this
list, and
I have gotten writing assignments from editors on this list. I doubt
if that
would ever happen on a general gardening list. Lastly, this list
includes
some very fine researchers and indexers of horticultural knowledge and
publications. It never takes long for a new topic or question to
generate
volumes of text and links from these fine researchers.
That's my opinion. And thank you again for maintaining such a valuable
list.
It was formed to satisfy a need, and it is still needed. I would feel a
terrible loss if it went away.
--
Larry Maupin
Maupin Photography
Freelance Garden Writer/Photographer
Member, Garden Writers Assoc.
larrymaupin@sbcglobal.net
Dallas, TX 214/341-3933
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End of gardenwriters Digest, Vol 2, Issue 28
********************************************
