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the value of this list

Lon,

At the risk of getting a slap for being a "me too" post, I need to say that what I learn here from all the posts that address content (me toos excluded!) helps me broaden my scope as a writer. I have belonged to many plant or garden oriented lists in the past and only this one is still being asked into my inbox. I agree with Larry, I would miss this one very much for both the writing and the writers' viewpoints on subjects we write about. If you look back at most of those seemingly non-writing discussions, you will see that they do reflect the point of view of writers who are thinking about how they will present content to their readers. The gardening discussions here also cover the entire range of gardening subjects where others may be very specific. We can ask each other about water gardening, new tools, micro-propagation or using perennials in containers as well as copyright issues and dealing with publishers. The archives are always a great source, too. I have gone looking for something that I noticed in passing four times in the last year.

I have also belonged to a couple of other lists about writing that I no longer read because one of them was too narrowly focused and the other was so poorly moderated that I unlisted because I wasn't interested in the flaming going on. I think you do a wonderful job of tugging at the lines and bringing us back to the subject at hand when we truly get off the road. If they gave awards for list moderation, you would certainly be in the nominated group. It must take a lot of time just to read all the stuff we say.

You ask what would get us to take the non-writing stuff to the other list. I don't go to the organic gardening list because I didn't keep the link, it (the link) isn't on the top or bottom of the list digest like the archive and picture links are, and I've been too lazy to go to the Archives and find it (I forget about it when I'm there looking for something else too). BUT mainly it is because I (rightly or wrongly) see it as too narrowly focused. I would not have thought to look on an organic gardening list for a discussion of what fish were appropriate to a water feature of some sort or for any of the whole invasive species thread?

Perhaps adding the organic gardening link to the housekeeping stuff at the top or bottom might help. At the appropriate point, another saying "this thread has been moved to ..." might encourage looking at it. I would like to vote for keeping it all together. For what it is worth, I do read one other gardening list. It is international and very social. The list owner lives in Sweden, the ISP is in Germany and she has 3 deputies, 2 in the U.S. (I am one) and one in Australia. We all can take turns moderating for her and we all have administrative capabilities to subscribe and unsubcribe members since the list setup does not have automatic capabilities. Maybe you could deputize your own posse and spread the work load.

Mary Henry
M&M Horticultural Communications
Minneapolis, MN 55406

On Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 02:07 AM, gardenwriters-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Acceptable Fish/Native fish (GardenLit@aol.com)
2. Re: Frogs are better than fish! (Lynn Jenkins)
3. responsible use of plants and animals in ponds (GardenLit@aol.com)
4. Re: work for free (Carol Wallace, Ph.D.)
5. Re: responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
(Duane Campbell)
6. Re: responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
(GardenLit@aol.com)
7. Re: responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
(Lon J. Rombough)
8. Re: responsible use of plants and animals in ponds (Marge Talt)
9. Mea culpa (Lon J. Rombough)
10. Re: Mea culpa (Larry Maupin)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 12:25:21 EST
From: GardenLit@aol.com
Subject: Re: [GWL] Acceptable Fish/Native fish
To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <43.19ab2deb.2ba4bc01@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Some states have laws against using native fish (not sure whether it has to
do with capturing them or stocking them) which complicates the issue. The
Sunday Telegraph (Portland Press, ME) ran a good article on fish for water
gardens, pointing out state law banning goldfish, and recommending some
native fish, the kind of article I wish more people would write. It was in
the last year, unfortunately I didn't save it.

I'll try to fish it out of a newspaper database I have access to.

The same concerns about what makes a plant native apply to fish, and their
ecology and habits are not well understood by the typical gardener, so be
careful about introducing "native" fish to waters it is not suited to or
waters it too might "invade".

Sally

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 12:33:16 -0500
From: Lynn Jenkins <jenks@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: [GWL] Frogs are better than fish!
To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
<gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030315123127.02f79088@iquest.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

And I repeat my previous thought: why bother with fish (native or not) when
you can have frogs and fathead minnows. Frogs are MUCH more enjoyable than
fish.
Lynn
Gardening WITH Nature

At 12:25 PM 3/15/2003, you wrote:
Some states have laws against using native fish (not sure whether it has to
do with capturing them or stocking them) which complicates the issue. The
Sunday Telegraph (Portland Press, ME) ran a good article on fish for water
gardens, pointing out state law banning goldfish, and recommending some
native fish, the kind of article I wish more people would write. It was in
the last year, unfortunately I didn't save it.

I'll try to fish it out of a newspaper database I have access to.

The same concerns about what makes a plant native apply to fish, and their
ecology and habits are not well understood by the typical gardener, so be
careful about introducing "native" fish to waters it is not suited to or
waters it too might "invade".

Sally
_______________________________________________
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http://www.hort.net/lists/gardenwriters

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show up at: http://www.hort.net/lists/gwlphotos


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:11:58 EST
From: GardenLit@aol.com
Subject: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <147.cfe1aee.2ba4f11e@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Lynn is right. Putting any fish in water gardens is too risky ecologically.
These are good sites to read.

http://aquahabitat.com/invasive.species.html

http://www.nativefish.org/ponder/index.html
has email forum to discuss pros and cons

Sally

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:07:46 -0500
From: "Carol Wallace, Ph.D." <gardenwriter@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [GWL] work for free
To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
<gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <3E73A432.6060209@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=IBM850; format=flowed

I am getting an advance from Timber Press - as well as a slight photo
allowance. So it does happen.
Carol

Marty Wingate wrote:

Friend or not, if you are contributing to the book, you should be
paid.  Timber Press does not give any advances (perhaps someone knows
of an actual exception to this rule?), so your writer-friend doesn't
have anything up front to give you from that stash (yes, advances are
so huge for garden writers), but you should still get a flat fee for
the writing (I have no experience with selling photos).
-- Virtually Gardening
http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/virtually_gardening
Sign up for Coping with Fibromyalgia at SuiteU starting March 13
http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/16603/overview/79
or Stenciling 101 also beginning on March 3
http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/17265/seminar






------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 18:07:08 -0500
From: Duane Campbell <dcamp911@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Cc: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20030315.201115.-221129.10.dcamp911@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:11:58 EST GardenLit@aol.com writes:
Lynn is right. Putting any fish in water gardens is too risky
Should I also get rid of my dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds, all
non-native species?

D

________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:39:08 EST
From: GardenLit@aol.com
Subject: Re: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <65.c875e72.2ba52fbc@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"


In a message dated 3/16/03 1:09:56 AM, dcamp911@juno.com writes:

<< Should I also get rid of my dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds, all
non-native species?



Do your dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds live in ponds? If yes,
then I

suggest you give them up.



------------------------------



Message: 7

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 18:01:42 -0800

From: "Lon J. Rombough" <lonrom@hevanet.com>

Subject: Re: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds

To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum

<gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>

Message-ID: <BA991B06.C196%lonrom@hevanet.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



This was a facetious comment (and I might have hollered about it) but
it

makes a serious point. Not everyone is really aware of what is and
isn't

native. Some invaders have been around long enough few people know
they ARE

invaders. Bullfrogs, for example, are not native to a lot of the
country,

but they have been spread so thoroughly that most people think they ARE

native. They are highly adaptible and will eat anything they can get
in

their mouths, including their own tadpoles, so they get along nearly

anywhere.

The most important thing about all this, I think, isn't so much the

introduction of non-natives as the loss of natives due to shrinking
habitat.

Many natives are losing out because the kinds of places they need to
live

are disappearing, while the invaders can use places the natives can't.

Here in Oregon the whole Willamette Valley was a wetland when the
settlers

came. Indians could scoop up the native frogs with baskets, they were
so

thick. Now, with channeling and draining, there are only isolated
pockets

of the species because the kind of habitat they need is all converted
to

farmland, while the bullfrogs can use any pond, drainage ditch, etc.
to live

in. In places where the right kind of wetlands exist, the bullfrogs
don't

hurt the natives because they can't get that many of them, and the
native

frogs breed and are out of the pond before the bullfrogs even get
active.

Pardon the ramble, but the point is that putting goldfish in a pond
is

NOT going to make that much difference in the long run. If you really
want

to help, create a native wetland on your land that the true native
species

can live in. Instead of trying to keep the invaders out, give the
natives

what they really need and they can usually hold their own quite well.

-Lon Rombough





<< Should I also get rid of my dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds,
all

non-native species?





Do your dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds live in ponds? If yes,
then I

suggest you give them up.



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Message: 8

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 22:14:17 -0500

From: "Marge Talt" <mtalt@hort.net>

Subject: Re: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds

To: "Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum"

<gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>

Message-ID: <E18uObI-0002oN-00@scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1



Very well put, Lon (therefore I am including the entire post for

those who may not have read it). The points you make are points that

seem to get lost in the 'native only' debate. Our "natives" (plants

and animals) often require very specific conditions to survive. Once

humans change those conditions, the natives can't survive and the

exotics, who can survive, move in. What needs to happen is less

human disturbance of the various ecosystems; then what is native

might have a chance. Banning non-native animals and plants will not

solve the problems we have created.



Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland

mtalt@hort.net

Editor: Gardening in Shade

-----------------------------------------------

Current Article: Wild, Wonderful Aroids Part 4 - Arisaema

http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening

------------------------------------------------

Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date

http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html

------------------------------------------------

All Suite101.com garden topics :

http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635



----------

From: Lon J. Rombough <lonrom@hevanet.com>



This was a facetious comment (and I might have hollered about it) but

it

makes a serious point. Not everyone is really aware of what is and

isn't

native. Some invaders have been around long enough few people know

they ARE

invaders. Bullfrogs, for example, are not native to a lot of the

country,

but they have been spread so thoroughly that most people think they

ARE

native. They are highly adaptible and will eat anything they can get

in

their mouths, including their own tadpoles, so they get along nearly

anywhere.

The most important thing about all this, I think, isn't so much

the

introduction of non-natives as the loss of natives due to shrinking

habitat.

Many natives are losing out because the kinds of places they need to

live

are disappearing, while the invaders can use places the natives

can't.

Here in Oregon the whole Willamette Valley was a wetland when the

settlers

came. Indians could scoop up the native frogs with baskets, they

were so

thick. Now, with channeling and draining, there are only isolated

pockets

of the species because the kind of habitat they need is all converted

to

farmland, while the bullfrogs can use any pond, drainage ditch, etc.

to live

in. In places where the right kind of wetlands exist, the bullfrogs

don't

hurt the natives because they can't get that many of them, and the

native

frogs breed and are out of the pond before the bullfrogs even get

active.

Pardon the ramble, but the point is that putting goldfish in a

pond is

NOT going to make that much difference in the long run. If you

really want

to help, create a native wetland on your land that the true native

species

can live in. Instead of trying to keep the invaders out, give the

natives

what they really need and they can usually hold their own quite well.





------------------------------



Message: 9

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:07:24 -0800

From: "Lon J. Rombough" <lonrom@hevanet.com>

Subject: [GWL] Mea culpa

To: GWL <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>

Message-ID: <BA994626.C1A6%lonrom@hevanet.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"



Having lectured the list on moving non-writing topics to the new

gardening list, I have to apologize for not having done it myself. The

thread on non-natives hit a nerve, and while it was germaine to garden

writing in one way, since it reflected a viewpoint that garden writers
might

consider, it was still too far off the writing mark to really be well
suited

to the list.

Which brings the second point of this letter - the new organic
gardening

list.

I would like to know, offlist if need be, what would provide the

incentive to the group to carry garden-type threads over to the new
list,

which was started to allow such discussions to continue without
overloading

the Garden WRITING list. I've moved a few such threads, but no one
seems

to continue them once they are moved. As I've said before, THIS list
was

created for garden WRITING, but we are in serious danger of letting it
slip

into being just a garden list.

Frankly, I'd just as soon kill the list as let it become just
another

gardening list.

We're all human, and very nice ones, too. But we ALL must maintain
the

discipline of keeping the list on topic and running cleanly if we want
it to

live up to it's full potential. Besides the fact that I don't like
having

to be the "heavy" to keep it running.

Please, folks, help me out.

-Lon Rombough, list founder



------------------------------



Message: 10

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 02:08:42 -0600

From: Larry Maupin <larrymaupin@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: [GWL] Mea culpa

To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum

<gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>

Message-ID: <BA998D2A.7CD9%larrymaupin@sbcglobal.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



on 3/15/03 11:07 PM, Lon J. Rombough at lonrom@hevanet.com wrote:


As I've said before, THIS list was

created for garden WRITING, but we are in serious danger of letting
it slip

into being just a garden list.



Lon -

I think we all greatly appreciate your continued effort to manage this
list.

Thank you! And I agree with your desire to keep gardening related chat
on

the Organic list, but I have a different perspective about the Garden

Writers' list. After 30 years in the nursery business and 4 years as a

part-time garden writer/photographer, I still feel like a novice much
of the

time on the Garden Writer's list. I have a lot to learn about the
garden

writing business, and, more to the point, I have a lot to learn about
many

of the important issues that we all discuss and write about, such as
our

recent invasive plant/fish thread. I'm looking at that issue from the

perspective of a garden writer, not as a gardener. I'm learning about
it so

I can write about it. I've communicated both on and off list with
people who

are informed about the issues, and I appreciate their opinions which
shape

my own.



The other gardening lists I'm on or have been on don't begin to touch
the

depth of discussion we enjoy here, which includes many of the finest
and

most knowledgeable gardeners in the world. I've been the "big fish" in
a

little garden list pond and learned very little (but I did so to share
my

knowledge). Even the bigger gardening lists with many hundreds of
members

seem chatty and shallow compared to the Garden Writers' list. I'd
rather be

a little fish in the bigger pond of garden writers.



As another example, I remember a thread on heirloom tomatoes a while
back, a

topic I'm not particularly interested in. However, as the discussion
went on

for a few days, I gained an insight into an aspect of this gardening

industry that had eluded me previously. Lists of varieties, sources,
names

of books and their publishers and authors, links to more info,
comments from

experts -- all of it added to my storehouse of horticultural
knowledge. I

would bet that the best of the gardening sites on the web could not
touch

the quality of information on heirloom tomatoes that we received from
this

list.



I have shared ideas with other professional photographers on this
list, and

I have gotten writing assignments from editors on this list. I doubt
if that

would ever happen on a general gardening list. Lastly, this list
includes

some very fine researchers and indexers of horticultural knowledge and

publications. It never takes long for a new topic or question to
generate

volumes of text and links from these fine researchers.



That's my opinion. And thank you again for maintaining such a valuable
list.

It was formed to satisfy a need, and it is still needed. I would feel a

terrible loss if it went away.

--

Larry Maupin

Maupin Photography

Freelance Garden Writer/Photographer

Member, Garden Writers Assoc.

larrymaupin@sbcglobal.net

Dallas, TX 214/341-3933



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End of gardenwriters Digest, Vol 2, Issue 28

********************************************


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