RE: the value of this list

**"Jeff Ball" j*@starband.net**

Thanks Mary, I feel the same way.
Thank you Lon for all of your effort, but keep a cool head; there is a lot
of valuable stuff in the heads of the gang on this list.
Later,
Jeff Ball

-----Original Message-----
From: gardenwriters-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[g*@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Mary Henry
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 2:37 PM
To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [GWL] the value of this list

Lon,

At the risk of getting a slap for being a "me too" post, I need to say
that what I learn here from all the posts that address content (me toos
excluded!) helps me broaden my scope as a writer. I have belonged to
many plant or garden oriented lists in the past and only this one is
still being asked into my inbox. I agree with Larry, I would miss this
one very much for both the writing and the writers' viewpoints on
subjects we write about. If you look back at most of those seemingly
non-writing discussions, you will see that they do reflect the point of
view of writers who are thinking about how they will present content to
their readers. The gardening discussions here also cover the entire
range of gardening subjects where others may be very specific. We can
ask each other about water gardening, new tools, micro-propagation or
using perennials in containers as well as copyright issues and dealing
with publishers. The archives are always a great source, too. I have
gone looking for something that I noticed in passing four times in the
last year.

I have also belonged to a couple of other lists about writing that I no
longer read because one of them was too narrowly focused and the other
was so poorly moderated that I unlisted because I wasn't interested in
the flaming going on. I think you do a wonderful job of tugging at the
lines and bringing us back to the subject at hand when we truly get off
the road. If they gave awards for list moderation, you would certainly
be in the nominated group. It must take a lot of time just to read all
the stuff we say.

You ask what would get us to take the non-writing stuff to the other
list. I don't go to the organic gardening list because I didn't keep
the link, it (the link) isn't on the top or bottom of the list digest
like the archive and picture links are, and I've been too lazy to go to
the Archives and find it (I forget about it when I'm there looking for
something else too). BUT mainly it is because I (rightly or wrongly)
see it as too narrowly focused. I would not have thought to look on an
organic gardening list for a discussion of what fish were appropriate
to a water feature of some sort or for any of the whole invasive
species thread?

Perhaps adding the organic gardening link to the housekeeping stuff at
the top or bottom might help. At the appropriate point, another saying
"this thread has been moved to ..." might encourage looking at it. I
would like to vote for keeping it all together. For what it is worth, I
do read one other gardening list. It is international and very social.
The list owner lives in Sweden, the ISP is in Germany and she has 3
deputies, 2 in the U.S. (I am one) and one in Australia. We all can
take turns moderating for her and we all have administrative
capabilities to subscribe and unsubcribe members since the list setup
does not have automatic capabilities. Maybe you could deputize your own
posse and spread the work load.

Mary Henry
M&M Horticultural Communications
Minneapolis, MN 55406

On Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 02:07  AM,
gardenwriters-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Acceptable Fish/Native fish (GardenLit@aol.com)
>    2. Re: Frogs are better than fish! (Lynn Jenkins)
>    3. responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
> (GardenLit@aol.com)
>    4. Re: work for free (Carol Wallace, Ph.D.)
>    5. Re: responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
>       (Duane Campbell)
>    6. Re: responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
>       (GardenLit@aol.com)
>    7. Re: responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
>       (Lon J. Rombough)
>    8. Re: responsible use of plants and animals in ponds (Marge Talt)
>    9. Mea culpa (Lon J. Rombough)
>   10. Re: Mea culpa (Larry Maupin)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 12:25:21 EST
> From: GardenLit@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [GWL] Acceptable Fish/Native fish
> To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <43.19ab2deb.2ba4bc01@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Some states have laws against using native fish (not sure whether it
> has to
> do with capturing them or stocking them) which complicates the issue.
> The
> Sunday Telegraph (Portland Press, ME) ran a good article on fish for
> water
> gardens, pointing out state law banning goldfish, and recommending some
> native fish, the kind of article I wish more people would write. It
> was in
> the last year, unfortunately I didn't save it.
>
> I'll try to fish it out of a newspaper database I have access to.
>
> The same concerns about what makes a plant native apply to fish, and
> their
> ecology and habits are not well understood by the typical gardener, so
> be
> careful about introducing "native" fish to waters it is not suited to
> or
> waters it too might "invade".
>
> Sally
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 12:33:16 -0500
> From: Lynn Jenkins <jenks@iquest.net>
> Subject: Re: [GWL] Frogs are better than fish!
> To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
>       <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030315123127.02f79088@iquest.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> And I repeat my previous thought: why bother with fish (native or not)
> when
> you can have frogs and fathead minnows.  Frogs are MUCH more enjoyable
> than
> fish.
> Lynn
> Gardening WITH Nature
>
> At 12:25 PM 3/15/2003, you wrote:
>> Some states have laws against using native fish (not sure whether it
>> has to
>> do with capturing them or stocking them) which complicates the issue.
>> The
>> Sunday Telegraph (Portland Press, ME) ran a good article on fish for
>> water
>> gardens, pointing out state law banning goldfish, and recommending
>> some
>> native fish, the kind of article I wish more people would write. It
>> was in
>> the last year, unfortunately I didn't save it.
>>
>> I'll try to fish it out of a newspaper database I have access to.
>>
>> The same concerns about what makes a plant native apply to fish, and
>> their
>> ecology and habits are not well understood by the typical gardener,
>> so be
>> careful about introducing "native" fish to waters it is not suited to
>> or
>> waters it too might "invade".
>>
>> Sally
>> _______________________________________________
>> gardenwriters mailing list
>> gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/gardenwriters
>>
>> GWL has searchable archives at:
>> http://www.hort.net/lists/gardenwriters
>>
>> If you have photos for GWL, send them to gwlphotos@hort.net and they
>> will
>> show up at: http://www.hort.net/lists/gwlphotos
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:11:58 EST
> From: GardenLit@aol.com
> Subject: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
> To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <147.cfe1aee.2ba4f11e@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Lynn is right. Putting any fish in water gardens is too risky
> ecologically.
> These are good sites to read.
>
> http://aquahabitat.com/invasive.species.html
>
> http://www.nativefish.org/ponder/index.html
> has email forum to discuss pros and cons
>
> Sally
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:07:46 -0500
> From: "Carol Wallace, Ph.D." <gardenwriter@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: [GWL] work for free
> To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
>       <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <3E73A432.6060209@mindspring.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=IBM850; format=flowed
>
> I am getting an advance from Timber Press - as well as a slight photo
> allowance. So it does happen.
> Carol
>
> Marty Wingate wrote:
>
>>
>> Friend or not, if you are contributing to the book, you should be
>> paid.  Timber Press does not give any advances (perhaps someone knows
>> of an actual exception to this rule?), so your writer-friend doesn't
>> have anything up front to give you from that stash (yes, advances are
>> so huge for garden writers), but you should still get a flat fee for
>> the writing (I have no experience with selling photos).
>
> --
> Virtually Gardening
> http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/virtually_gardening
> Sign up for Coping with Fibromyalgia at SuiteU starting March 13
> http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/16603/overview/79
> or Stenciling 101 also beginning on March 3
> http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/17265/seminar
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 18:07:08 -0500
> From: Duane Campbell <dcamp911@juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
> To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
> Cc: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <20030315.201115.-221129.10.dcamp911@juno.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:11:58 EST GardenLit@aol.com writes:
>> Lynn is right. Putting any fish in water gardens is too risky
>
> Should I also get rid of my dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds, all
> non-native species?
>
> D
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> Only $9.95 per month!
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:39:08 EST
> From: GardenLit@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
> To: gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <65.c875e72.2ba52fbc@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> In a message dated 3/16/03 1:09:56 AM, dcamp911@juno.com writes:
>
> << Should I also get rid of my dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds,
> all
> non-native species?
>>>
>
> Do your dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds live in ponds? If yes,
> then I
> suggest you give them up.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 18:01:42 -0800
> From: "Lon J. Rombough" <lonrom@hevanet.com>
> Subject: Re: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
> To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
>       <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <BA991B06.C196%lonrom@hevanet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> This was a facetious comment (and I might have hollered about it) but
> it
> makes a serious point.  Not everyone is really aware of what is and
> isn't
> native.  Some invaders have been around long enough few people know
> they ARE
> invaders.  Bullfrogs, for example, are not native to a lot of the
> country,
> but they have been spread so thoroughly that most people think they ARE
> native.  They are highly adaptible and will eat anything they can get
> in
> their mouths, including their own tadpoles, so they get along nearly
> anywhere.
>    The most important thing about all this, I think, isn't so much the
> introduction of non-natives as the loss of natives due to shrinking
> habitat.
> Many natives are losing out because the kinds of places they need to
> live
> are disappearing, while the invaders can use places the natives can't.
> Here in Oregon the whole Willamette Valley was a wetland when the
> settlers
> came.  Indians could scoop up the native frogs with baskets, they were
> so
> thick.  Now, with channeling and draining, there are only isolated
> pockets
> of the species because the kind of habitat they need is all converted
> to
> farmland, while the bullfrogs can use any pond, drainage ditch, etc.
> to live
> in.  In places where the right kind of wetlands exist, the bullfrogs
> don't
> hurt the natives because they can't get that many of them, and the
> native
> frogs breed and are out of the pond before the bullfrogs even get
> active.
>    Pardon the ramble, but the point is that putting goldfish in a pond
> is
> NOT going to make that much difference in the long run.  If you really
> want
> to help, create a native wetland on your land that the true native
> species
> can live in.  Instead of trying to keep the invaders out, give the
> natives
> what they really need and they can usually hold their own quite well.
> -Lon Rombough
>
>
> << Should I also get rid of my dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds,
> all
> non-native species?
>>>
>
> Do your dog, two cats, rabbit, and love birds live in ponds? If yes,
> then I
> suggest you give them up.
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 22:14:17 -0500
> From: "Marge Talt" <mtalt@hort.net>
> Subject: Re: [GWL] responsible use of plants and animals in ponds
> To: "Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum"
>       <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <E18uObI-0002oN-00@scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Very well put, Lon (therefore I am including the entire post for
> those who may not have read it). The points you make are points that
> seem to get lost in the 'native only' debate.  Our "natives" (plants
> and animals) often require very specific conditions to survive. Once
> humans change those conditions, the natives can't survive and the
> exotics, who can survive, move in.  What needs to happen is less
> human disturbance of the various ecosystems; then what is native
> might have a chance.  Banning non-native animals and plants will not
> solve the problems we have created.
>
> Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland
> mtalt@hort.net
> Editor:  Gardening in Shade
> -----------------------------------------------
> Current Article: Wild, Wonderful Aroids Part 4 - Arisaema
> http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening
> ------------------------------------------------
> Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date
> http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html
> ------------------------------------------------
> All Suite101.com garden topics :
> http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635
>
> ----------
> From: Lon J. Rombough <lonrom@hevanet.com>
>
> This was a facetious comment (and I might have hollered about it) but
> it
> makes a serious point.  Not everyone is really aware of what is and
> isn't
> native.  Some invaders have been around long enough few people know
> they ARE
> invaders.  Bullfrogs, for example, are not native to a lot of the
> country,
> but they have been spread so thoroughly that most people think they
> ARE
> native.  They are highly adaptible and will eat anything they can get
> in
> their mouths, including their own tadpoles, so they get along nearly
> anywhere.
>    The most important thing about all this, I think, isn't so much
> the
> introduction of non-natives as the loss of natives due to shrinking
> habitat.
> Many natives are losing out because the kinds of places they need to
> live
> are disappearing, while the invaders can use places the natives
> can't.
> Here in Oregon the whole Willamette Valley was a wetland when the
> settlers
> came.  Indians could scoop up the native frogs with baskets, they
> were so
> thick.  Now, with channeling and draining, there are only isolated
> pockets
> of the species because the kind of habitat they need is all converted
> to
> farmland, while the bullfrogs can use any pond, drainage ditch, etc.
> to live
> in.  In places where the right kind of wetlands exist, the bullfrogs
> don't
> hurt the natives because they can't get that many of them, and the
> native
> frogs breed and are out of the pond before the bullfrogs even get
> active.
>    Pardon the ramble, but the point is that putting goldfish in a
> pond is
> NOT going to make that much difference in the long run.  If you
> really want
> to help, create a native wetland on your land that the true native
> species
> can live in.  Instead of trying to keep the invaders out, give the
> natives
> what they really need and they can usually hold their own quite well.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:07:24 -0800
> From: "Lon J. Rombough" <lonrom@hevanet.com>
> Subject: [GWL] Mea culpa
> To: GWL <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <BA994626.C1A6%lonrom@hevanet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>    Having lectured the list on moving non-writing topics to the new
> gardening list, I have to apologize for not having done it myself.  The
> thread on non-natives hit a nerve, and while it was germaine to garden
> writing in one way, since it reflected a viewpoint that garden writers
> might
> consider, it was still too far off the writing mark to really be well
> suited
> to the list.
>    Which brings the second point of this letter - the new organic
> gardening
> list.
>    I would like to know, offlist if need be, what would provide the
> incentive to the group to carry garden-type threads over to the new
> list,
> which was started to allow such discussions to continue without
> overloading
> the Garden WRITING list.    I've moved a few such threads, but no one
> seems
> to continue them once they are moved.  As I've said before, THIS list
> was
> created for garden WRITING, but we are in serious danger of letting it
> slip
> into being just a garden list.
>    Frankly, I'd just as soon kill the list as let it become just
> another
> gardening list.
>    We're all human, and very nice ones, too.  But we ALL must maintain
> the
> discipline of keeping the list on topic and running cleanly if we want
> it to
> live up to it's full potential.  Besides the fact that I don't like
> having
> to be the "heavy" to keep it running.
>    Please, folks, help me out.
> -Lon Rombough, list founder
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 02:08:42 -0600
> From: Larry Maupin <larrymaupin@sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [GWL] Mea culpa
> To: Garden Writers -- GWL -- The Garden Writers Forum
>       <gardenwriters@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <BA998D2A.7CD9%larrymaupin@sbcglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> on 3/15/03 11:07 PM, Lon J. Rombough at lonrom@hevanet.com wrote:
>> As I've said before, THIS list was
>> created for garden WRITING, but we are in serious danger of letting
>> it slip
>> into being just a garden list.
>
> Lon -
> I think we all greatly appreciate your continued effort to manage this
> list.
> Thank you! And I agree with your desire to keep gardening related chat
> on
> the Organic list, but I have a different perspective about the Garden
> Writers' list. After 30 years in the nursery business and 4 years as a
> part-time garden writer/photographer, I still feel like a novice much
> of the
> time on the Garden Writer's list. I have a lot to learn about the
> garden
> writing business, and, more to the point, I have a lot to learn about
> many
> of the important issues that we all discuss and write about, such as
> our
> recent invasive plant/fish thread. I'm looking at that issue from the
> perspective of a garden writer, not as a gardener. I'm learning about
> it so
> I can write about it. I've communicated both on and off list with
> people who
> are informed about the issues, and I appreciate their opinions which
> shape
> my own.
>
> The other gardening lists I'm on or have been on don't begin to touch
> the
> depth of discussion we enjoy here, which includes many of the finest
> and
> most knowledgeable gardeners in the world. I've been the "big fish" in
> a
> little garden list pond and learned very little (but I did so to share
> my
> knowledge). Even the bigger gardening lists with many hundreds of
> members
> seem chatty and shallow compared to the Garden Writers' list. I'd
> rather be
> a little fish in the bigger pond of garden writers.
>
> As another example, I remember a thread on heirloom tomatoes a while
> back, a
> topic I'm not particularly interested in. However, as the discussion
> went on
> for a few days, I gained an insight into an aspect of this gardening
> industry that had eluded me previously. Lists of varieties, sources,
> names
> of books and their publishers and authors, links to more info,
> comments from
> experts -- all of it added to my storehouse of horticultural
> knowledge. I
> would bet that the best of the gardening sites on the web could not
> touch
> the quality of information on heirloom tomatoes that we received from
> this
> list.
>
> I have shared ideas with other professional photographers on this
> list, and
> I have gotten writing assignments from editors on this list. I doubt
> if that
> would ever happen on a general gardening list. Lastly, this list
> includes
> some very fine researchers and indexers of horticultural knowledge and
> publications. It never takes long for a new topic or question to
> generate
> volumes of text and links from these fine researchers.
>
> That's my opinion. And thank you again for maintaining such a valuable
> list.
> It was formed to satisfy a need, and it is still needed. I would feel a
> terrible loss if it went away.
> --
> Larry Maupin
> Maupin Photography
> Freelance Garden Writer/Photographer
> Member, Garden Writers Assoc.
> larrymaupin@sbcglobal.net
> Dallas, TX   214/341-3933
>
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>
> End of gardenwriters Digest, Vol 2, Issue 28
> ********************************************

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