This is a public-interest archive. Personal data is pseudonymized and retained under GDPR Article 89.

Re: Apology

Bill and all

I have been on the net for about 4 years. In that time I have
participated in many listserv offerings and actually run a few myself
(one of my companies owns a collocated server).

In that time I have seen some pretty decent lists degenerate into brawls
as a consequence of the acts of individuals who I have come to label as
"inciters."

"Inciters" follow a distinct pattern of disruption. They are incapable
of seeing themselves in the light of an inciter. They will never repent.

First they select an opinion or statement, generally insignificant in
nature and attack the individual making the statement. NOT THE STATEMENT
OR THE VERACITY OF THE INFORMATION. "Inciters" rarely debate in the
traditional sense of the word, they attack. A debate would require the
"inciter" to actually address the validity of the premise, in this
instance the simple statement, "water in it's purest form is an acid."
They rarely take the time to do this, preferring instead the ad hominem
attack. 

Rarely if ever is the original statement relevant or even important, but
the attack is justified in the name of truth and order, the "inciter"
becomes the "thought policeman" for the list, no one elected him for
this position, he just decided that one was needed. The statement "Water
in it's purest form is an acid" apparently pisses Bill off something
fierce. Of course he has done nothing to refute the statement. He simply
states that it is wrong. HIS opinion. The "inciter" believes that his
opinion is the only one that reflects the "truth." Heaven forbid that
anyone else would have a different "truth." This includes all of you
too, I am just the present target.

Of course the "inciter," the all knowing, and all wise, protector of the
"truth" of the list, feels fully justified in his actions - especially
since no one tells him to shut the hell up and respect others rights to
an opinion. He sees anyone that disagrees with him or who has an opinion
different from his as the enemy of the list. He does not see the need
for divergence and he generally possesses a "know it all" character
flaw. This is a glaring feature in those with low self esteems. A low
self esteem is the basis for most non-organic psychological disorders. 

Regardless of the nature of the attack, it is still an attack - an ad
hominem attack. 
An Ad hominem attack is an attack on the man - not the fact. This is a
very common fallacy akin to killing the messenger instead of addressing
the message. It is one thing to challenge the original assertion that
"water in it's purest form is an acid" and another entirely to attack
the individual who asserts the proposition. 

So far I have not hear one shred of evidence to refute the original
statement that "water in it's purest form is an acid." I would most
certainly like to hear from anyone that could directly refute this
statement with some empirical evidence, I will start an actual defense
of my statement at the end of this letter. Not that it really matters as
the "inciter" could care less about proof, especially when it fly's in
the face of HIS truth. Afterall, he is the ONLY one who knows the truth. 

My original source of this information was a Harvard educated Ph.D. in a
molecular chemistry class 16 years ago at Austin College. An entire
classroom of budding scientists accepted this statement based on the
argumentum ad vericundiam "appeal to authority" of the professor. A
statement Ph.D. from Harvard is much more impressive than the opinion of
some unknown individual 16 years later. Most reasonable people would
tend to believe a Harvard Ph.D. and I doubt if he was joking when he
made the statement. Given the choice between a Harvard Ph.D. and an
anonymous jerk, I will pick the Harvard Ph.D.

Then come the inevitable personal comments off the list. For what it is
worth, the "inciter" generally INITIATES these correspondences (as is
the case in this specific instance), but rarely sees that this as a an
act designed to facilitate conflict or a direct attack. Again, he can
easily justify his actions, afterall, he just wants his truth to be the
only truth. Even when asked to NOT reply, the "inciter" simply cannot
stop. He is OBSESSED about being right. 

From all correspondences between the "inciter" and his victim, the
"inciter" selectively takes those items which would be the most
inflammatory, especially when taken out of context, and subtly makes
them available to the list, a little bit at a time. If a "dirty word" is
used, he takes this out of context too and inflames the moral outrage of
other small minds. 

This is the same technique used by propagandists from the beginning of
time. 

So far, Bill has stated - in private correspondences of course - that I
am uneducated, a liar, that I do not possess the education that I state,
that I am somehow violent because I stated that "water in it's purest
form is an acid.", that he has contacted his local law enforcement
officials, and a few other choice tid bits - all designed to inflame -
and not a single refutation of the statement that "water in it's purest
form is an acid." 

When I respond in ANY format or most certainly in kind, things escalate
- I for one will NOT be lectured, insulted, or challenged without cause
and I am not in the habit of taking lip when it is undeserved. I do not
generally give off heat, but I will certainly not take heat. Making an
innocent statement that "water in it's purest form is an acid" does not
seem to be a challenge. In simple terms. Bill, I am NOT going to take
your bullshit. It is all just so much fertilizer.

I challenge any normal man or woman with a healthy self esteem to allow
anyone, especially an unknown party, to assert these ridiculous
statements without a challenge. 

The next action of the "inciter" is what I have come to call the
"politicking" mode, attempting to drum up a constituency of other list
members. In this instance the "inciter" already has one ally. 

The end result of this is that the list suffers, irrelevancies become
suddenly relevant, and the name calling starts in earnest. 

I have witnessed this on numerous lists over the years. Anyone who
states an opinion is subject to this abuse - none of you is immune from
this heaped abuse. The self appointed "thought policeman" derives most
of his satisfaction as a participant of the list from his abuse and then
runs and hides. He really does not care a wit for the actual subject
matter, he is looking for a victim to ridicule and abuse. This sort of
crap is his HOBBY.

It is a pitiful thing to witness and a sad statement about the nature of
human communication. The internet fosters it because of the anonymity
and distance. Cowards rarely act in the face of real opposition or in
the light of day, rather, they hide and snipe. 

There IS no reasonable way to end the "inciters" abuse either. They do
not know how to admit defeat when presented with the facts and they can
safely run away and hide. If history repeats itself in this instance,
there will be a rush of mail that no longer has one iota of content
related to the nature of the list. This will make the "inciter"
gleefully happy. Generally I get fed up with this childishness and go
elsewhere. I have been talked down to worse by better people than Bill. 

Just to focus this on the original statement and to NOT allow this to
degenerate into a pissing contest, I offer a little research on the
original statement that "water in it's purest form is an acid."

According to Darrel D. Ebbing or Wayne State University and Mark S.
Wrighton of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, authors of
"General Chemistry" published by Houghton Mifflin Company,
ISBN:0-395-31489-5, an ACID is "a substance other than a salt that
increases the concentration of hydrogen ion in water solution."

Everyone knows the chemical formula for the compound we know as water as
H20. 

The reality is that "water" as we see it and drink is is NOT just H2O. 
In fact naturally occurring water contains many compounds and other
elements that associate with the H2O compound. 

The process of removing these elements by distillation, filtration, and
other methods allows the actual stripping of these compounds and other
elements from the H2O compound. The "purest form" of water is a
laboratory creation. Oh, and it DOES exist.

In its purest form a water molecule contains 2 hydrogen molecules and 1
oxygen molecule. 

In 1808, Humphrey Davies showed that hydrogen was the essential
constituent of acids. H2O has 2 Hydrogen molecules and thus, the
"essential constituent" of an acid is present. 

In 1884 Svante Arrhenius determined that "an acid is a substance that
when dissolved in water increases the concentration of hydrogen ion, H.
Thus ALL acids have a hydrogen ion, in water it is diatomic. H2.

A "base" is a substance that whey dissolved in water increases the
concentration of the hydroxide ion, OH.

By definitions, substances are either "acids" or "bases." PERIOD.

Thus, additions of the OTHER ELEMENTS AND COMPOUNDS -- acids or bases --
alters the equilibrium concentrations of these ions of water. 

Therefore, when you remove by distillation or other purification methods
the other elements or compounds from "water" and strip it to it's basic
components of hydrogen and oxygen, you CREATE "a substance other than a
salt that increases the concentration of hydrogen ion in water
solution." 

Thus, and since in it's purest form, "water" has an increased number of
hydrogen ions, it is an acid.

Voila. By definition, not opinion, "water in it's purest form is an
acid."

If the premise of a hypothetical syllogism are true, then by definition
the conclusion drawn by a hypothetical syllogism is also true. 

I do not profess to being a scientist, I offer no expertise in chemistry
(in fact I hated it in college), in fact I offer no opinion that I am an
expert at ANY aspect of growing ANYTHING. BUT, I DO have more than a
precursory knowledge of how to learn and discover. 

Joining this list is an attempt on my part, and admission of ignorance
(defined as the lack of specific knowledge), to LEARN. 

I am interested in being taught and teaching what I know but I simply
will not be lectured or insulted or attacked. 

I welcome information on the growth of plants, but I frankly could care
less about the veracity of the statement that "water in it's purest form
is an acid." I am a little shocked that anyone would care about the
statement "water in it's purest form is an acid" - makes me wonder if
they have a life.

This whole issue is IRRELEVANT and MOOT.

NOW, having made these statements, would anyone like to take a bet that
even when presented with the facts from reputable, verifiable, sources,
Bill will continue to be an "inciter?" I bet $5 that he cannot leave
this alone and get back to the substantiative aspects of growing plants
in the square foot methodology. 

An "inciter" JUST HAS TO HAVE THE LAST WORD. 

THIS is my last word on this subject. 

Kevin B. O'Brien wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 01 Jul 1998 16:27:46 -0400, Bill DeWitt
> <TheMiller@theimagemill.com> , late of Pablo Fanques Fair wrote:
> 
> >Well,
> >       seems I have done the unforgivable crime of correcting a blatant error.
> >"Advocate" has sent me obscenities which boil down to "You better not ever
> >correct me again" so for "Advocate"s peice of mind.
> >       Yes, it is only my political/religious opinion that water is not an acid
> >at whatever purity. I apoplgize for stating it as a fact.
> >       Please do not send anymore obscenities to my private mail. You win.
> >               Thank you.
> 
> Huh? I read both posts, and I thought you were fairly moderate about
> pointing it out. I don't remember seeing any "Nyah,Nyah"s in your
> reply.
> 
> --
> Kevin B. O'Brien                  TANSTAAFL
> kob1@ix.netcom.com
> "May God defend me from my friends; I can defend myself from my enemies."
>                                                         Voltaire
> 
> Help fight SPAM. Join CAUCE. http://www.cauce.org/
> --
> To unsubscribe, send a message to: majordomo@lists.umsl.edu
> with the single body line: unsubscribe sqft
> Contact owner-sqft@lists.umsl.edu with any admin questions.

-- 
Advocate
--
To unsubscribe, send a message to: majordomo@lists.umsl.edu
with the single body line: unsubscribe sqft
Contact owner-sqft@lists.umsl.edu with any admin questions.
Other Mailing lists | Author Index | Date Index | Subject Index | Thread Index