Re: RE: Yellow plicatas and Timewarp

Wonderful "ranting" Chuck!!  It's so welcomed.

Margie V.
Oro Valley, AZ.
Zone 8/9
IrisLady@comcast.net


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <irischapman@netscape.net>
To: <iris-photos@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 2:01 PM
Subject: [iris-photos] RE: Yellow plicatas and Timewarp


> You do have yellow , pink, blue etc amoenas even if the carotenoid and 
> anthocyanin pigments are controlled by separate genes and a yellow amoena 
> will not afect the distribution of the anthocyanin pigment. Look at the 
> two attached pictures of a chimera of Summer camp. The exact same 
> distribution of the anthocyanin and the carotene pigments are obvious when 
> the anthocyanin is removed. the original idea was that plicatas are a 
> pattern of the anthocyanin and that thus you couldn't have carotenoid 
> plicatas as the plicata gene didn't control the cartenoid pigments. A lot 
> of the original "yellow plicatas" were a plicata pattern of anthocyanin on 
> a yellow ground. This basically was called a misuse of the term and I 
> agree fully with this. Thus the terminology was very incorrect used this 
> was and we now call these plicata on a yellow ground. Now when people say 
> yellow plicata they refer to a stitching of yellow  in a plicata pattern 
> on a white ground. When Light Beam (Blyth 1985) was first introduced Barry 
> called it a yellow plicata. It was from Broadway X Beverly Sills. He got 
> called to task for using such a term. Broadway is a plicata with intense , 
> unmarked yellow standards and falls with red plicata markings around the 
> falls which are white in the centre. A close look shows that there 
> basically is a yellow rim around the standards and the anthocyanin is on 
> top of this, not what I would call a red on white plicata but a plicata on 
> a Joyce Terry ground. Beverly Sills is a pink but it and its parent Vanity 
> throw lots of plicatas. Either one or both could be a plicata with the 
> anthocyanin removed by one of the anthocyanin removal genes (recessive or 
> dominant) and with BS I suspect "I". I used LB in a plicata cross and got 
> all plicata offspring. Barry also has done this and has gotten the same 
> result. Jean Witt had written an article (I'd have to look up the 
> reference) where she was a heretic (my term) and presented an argument for 
> there being yellow plicatas with the yellow pigment distributed in a 
> plicata pattern just like the  anthocyanin is.
> In the cross of mine with light beam I got some seedlings with a purple 
> plicata stitching on a Joyce terry pattern. The colour of the stitching is 
> red when it is on the yellow ground and violet-blue where it is on the 
> white ground on the falls. There also was one seedling with yellow 
> stitching in exactly the same pattern as in a plicata. Dots and veins and 
> not solid as in a JT pattern.
>
> Facts are facts, theories try to explain facts, if they don't then we need 
> another explanation. I have accepted these facts to mean that we can have 
> carotenoid pigment distributed exactly like anthocyanin apparently 
> controlled by the same factor. You don't check out something that you 
> don't believe in its existence so this hasn't been researched as it 
>doesn’t 
> exist, right? Well my first thoughts were that perhaps the yellow was a 
> flavanoid so I checked this out. That is not the case, it really is an oil 
> based yellow pigment, not water based. Currently I'm trying to find out if 
> we can call on a structural explanation. That is a difference in the cell 
> structure  that somehow prevents any pigment from being present. It seems 
> to be related to  the original genes from Iris variegata where we can and 
> do have both water based and oil based pigments distributed exactly the 
> same way, 100 percent matching. You can't have this if one gene controls 
> yellow and one controls violet, there is no way then can be aligned this 
> precisely. With all the evidence supporting  I. variegata as being one of 
> the ancestor species  of the plicata pattern  there does seem to be a 
> connection.
> I present a program  I call "Pigments and Pattern" exploring and 
> explaining how we put all the various gene controls and pigments togther 
> to make the various iris flowers we have. I always trot out my data on 
> "Yellow plicatas"
> It appears to be quite convincing.
> Once there is a general (or increased ) acknowledgement of its existence 
> then there be research into how it is so. Right now there is a dearth of 
> research. After all why research something that doesn't exist.
>
>
> Saying "By definition, a plicata must  contain anthocyanin!”is an attempt 
> to define it out of existence.
> I have heard various explanation that could possible explain some 
> situations, but they don’t really seem to be able to explain all things, 
> especially  something like Time Warp where even if there is some 
> anthocyanin there on top the yellow to make the dots stand out, you can 
> see that the yellow is there in dots. I have taken several good close ups 
> of a number of my yellow SDB  patterned from plicata genetics that show 
> dotted and streaked yellow on white that even if there is some anthocyanin 
> there, it couldn’t possibly account for what is seen.
>
> Sorry for the long rant but the more I study    Pigments and patterns the 
> more I realize that there are factors influencing them that haven’t been 
> fully explored. This is one, flavanoids are another
> and there is Anthocyanin Enhancement ( anthocyaninic vacuole inclusions) 
> and a couple more I suspect and have good documentation for.
>
> I feel there is a lot of research that could be done that is not being 
> done. Dr. Randolf did some nice genetic research with three generation of 
> crosses with good data collected. This data is still available in his book 
> and only recently have I been able to properly analysis it. We need more 
> research like this. WE now have the tools needed. The digital camera is an 
> excellent tool. Randolf’s research involved other people making the 
> crosses and sending seeds to him. He had to grow them as it needed an 
> expert to examine the seedlings. We can now economically take photos of 
> all the seedlings and examine at them at leisure. Seedling don’t have to 
> be grown by the person doing the evaluation as good photos can provide 
> lots of useful   information and be distributed to as many people who can 
> all do their own analysis in their area of expertise.
>
> Many of the crosses that can provide the data are being made. It’s just 
> necessary to collect the data that is there and get it to those willing 
> and able to analysis it.
>
> Enough ranting for now.
>
> Chuck Chapman
>
>
>
>>In a message dated 1/20/2005 11:13:51 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>>irischapman@netscape.net writes:
>>
>>Usually  when someone sugests that something is a yellow plicata
>>all sorts of  denials of such an animal come out of the woodwork.
>>
>>
>>Chuck, I'm one of the confused ones.  It didn't make sense to me  that two
>>plants with the same pattern, one yellow and the other purple, wouldn't 
>>be the
>>same type.
>>
>>Here is the explanation I received:  "
>>
>>
>>
>>Betty W. in  South-central KY Zone 6
>>Bridge In Time Iris Garden@website:
>
>
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