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Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other

  • Subject: Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other
  • From: irischapman@aim.com
  • Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:55:03 -0500


The Direct bloom definition is my own, not traditional. The criterian  of temperature is based on my own observations.
For this year, I didn't have air temps high enough for bud set, but I noticed growth spurt in increases, which is also associated with bud set. I suspect that I had ground temps high enough to get apical meristemn up to temprerature. My ground sensor was out for summer so I didn't get the ground temperatures.

I'm looking at what triggers the bud set and bloom, to help sort out what we see with the different rebloomers.

So did you have  the  flower bud set temperatures of 6 days in a row with temperature lows  between 16 and 21 C in june , about 2-3 weeks before bloom?

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Autmirislvr@aol.com
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:22 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other

I've daily records of high and low temperatures in my garden since Dec. 16 of 2006.  (I understand these are air temperatures, not ground temperatures.)
I'm not arguing temperature vs time.  I understand that it is not based on time, or date of year.  (If this were the case irises would start bloom the same day world over.) I understand that flower set will vary in week/month due to the zone the plant finds itself growing in, varying with early or late seasons.   What happens for me in zone 6 will happen earlier in zones 8 & 9, while being later in the calendar year in your garden. (zone 4?) 
<<If you don't have temerature records for your garden,>>
Sorry, I was not aware of a "traditional" definition for summer bloom.  As stated, for me summer bloom describes something that blooms in the summer--mid June thru mid Sept., here, but later (and shorter) for you.   

Thanks for the clarification. 
Betty Wilkerson
Bridge In Time Iris
KY zone 6. 

-----Original Message-----
From: irischapman@aim.com
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:40 am
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other

Spring bloom is about May28th to June 20th for TB here.  So when we get mid Aug bloom on Queen dorothy and Immortality. this is about 6 weeks after spring bloom. Obiously time for these cultivars  to produce mature plants on the spring increase.

I suspect you will need t ostart keeping min/max temperature recodings, so you can distinguish between what type of bloom triggers you have,

I  refer to the "summer rebloomers ' as being biological "direct blomers" . I use the term "summer Rebloomers" as that is tradition.

My article in the spring Rebloomer details my studies on floer bud set. It could be 6 weeks after spring bloom, but the time is not the trigger . The temperature is. Different  studies on this found time of flower bud set to be at various times, depending on where the studies were done. German study found it to be in July, Japanese study found it to be in late August. Thes were field studies.

Richard Harkness at University of Mineaplois has read my study and is using the data t orun some of his own experiments. A few weeks back he let me know that he got flower bud set om Artic Fox with 6-9 days of exposure of  to min night temperature of 19C. So it looks as if temeprature, rather then time is indeed the biological trigger for flower bud set.

So, it isn't per say the time the flower blooms as what is the environmentsl conditions when plant reaches maturity.  Six weeks following bloom sems to be enough time for the most vigorous of cultivars to produce mature plants. If they get temperatures for flower bud set, and then proceed to bloom, then they are direct bloomers, what we call Summer rebloomers.

In your climate you may very well have the temperatures you need for flower bud set in June, six weeks after plants have had spring  bloom.

If you don't have temerature records for your garden, than could you find the nearest weather station to you with temerature records? Check "weather  Underground"  for this. 

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Autmirislvr@aol.com
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com; iris@hort.net
Sent: Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:14 am
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other

In my zone 6 garden, rebloomers typically spring bloom during the last week in April and/or the first week in May.  (This is not the numbering system used in the handbook.  I'm numbering these to keep it clear in my own mind.)  Also, cross referencing with iris talk list since we are on iris photo) 
1) On rare occasions plants put up late stalks.  I think the AIS Judges Handbook now calls this "Secondary Stalk Rebloomers?"  I've seen some of these but not many. 
For me, they are often confused with
2) Repeat bloomers.  Irises like Summer Radiance (mine) and Pure As Gold (Maryott) often send up stalks about 6 weeks after regular bloom.  Both can also bloom in the fall.  Although this one blooms in summer and late fall I do not think it is a "whenever" as it appears (to me) to have other conditions at work.  SR bloom is directly/obviously connected to rhizome maturity.  Maybe it contains genes for both repeat and cycle rebloom. 
3) Cycle Rebloomers--have a distinct fall cycle of bloom.  Most of mine (appear) to fall into this class-Bridge In Time, Another Bridge, Radiant Bliss, etc..  I've never had July, August, or Sept bloom on these.  July, August, and Sept bloom is what I've been calling "summer" bloom. 
4 & 5) Whenever & Sporadic.  I lump these together because they are all unpredictable.  They do not depend on day length to trigger bloom.  They can bloom anytime from frost to frost.  In my area, (zone 6) they can bloom anytime from late June to frost.  Late June is rare, and is more likely to happen in my seedlings.  My belief is that the difference in the two is found in the modifiers or triggers, but maybe it is dependent on the strength of the rebloom gene.  Of course, the Sporadics rarely bloom here, but are such a treat when they do. 
<<Whenever rebloomers will rebloom much  earlier then a Summer rebloomer.>>
Renown, Total Recall, Cantina, Violet Miracle, and many others. (5 of mine) have all bloomed in July here.  Some bloom from July thru fall freeze.  July is summer for me but I've always considered them to be in the "whenever" group.  Each year is a bit different depending on many variables.  Maybe we should call these "early whenevers?"
When you say "summer rebloomers," you are not referring to season of bloom, but process of flower initiation.  (something most of us do not see)  This may be what is confusing me.  I think I would have a hard time distinguishing "summer" bloom from "whenever" bloom in my garden. 
I've read that iris stalks are initiated approximately 6 weeks after spring bloom.  (June here)  If this is true for all irises, wouldn't the time of bloom be determined by the modifiers/triggers?  Normal would be spring bloom.  Rebloom might be the presence of modifiers/triggers or simply the absent of modifiers or damaged modifiers?   Just thinking out loud here. 
New seedlings often bloom the first year after planting so they would have to be planted quite early to bloom the first year.  When I've been able to plant by the end of June, I get good first year bloom.  (spring) This falls within the six weeks frame for most of the seedlings. 
Betty Wilkerson
Bridge In Time Irises
KY Zone 6 

-----Original Message-----
From: irischapman@aim.com
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 10:29 pm
Subject: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)

Summer Rebloomers are "direct Bloomer" biological. that is they go directly from flower bud set to flowering.  Flower bud set for  TBs are usually 6 days with minimum temperature between 16-21C  aftrer plant  has reached leaf count maturity minus one. The final leaf is not seen until after flower stalk has emerged, and second last leaf is tucked fairly tightly inside fan, but can be seen if leaves are opened.  So they don't need  vernalization  or photoperiod trigger.

Fall cyclic rebloomers set flower buds at same time as Summer rebloomers, but need a short night signal to initiate flower stalk growth, thus fall rebloom.

Whenever rebloomers will rebloom much  earlier then a Summer rebloomer. they seem to set flower bud as soon as the plant reches maturity, or so it seems.

For me Forever Blue  et ilk, can start rebloom even before TBs finish. Often only needing about a week of rest before restarting. And then proceed to rebloom several times. Both Forever Blue  and  Autumn Jester have done near continuous bloom, and Forever Violet is not far behind. For me Summer rebloomers start with Queen Dorathy, followed shortly by Immortality. The earliest is about mid August, while Whenever rebloomers  can start at  end of June, when TBs are just starting their spring bloom. This year, with a cool summer, QD  and Imm rebloomed second week of Sept. Three months after whenever rebloomers started.

Thus a sporatic rebloomer that rebloomes in summer, with other Summer rebloomers, is likely to be more similar to Summer rebloomers geneticall, and biological, then to whenever rebloomers. If rebloom is much earlier then summer rebloomers, and not on a delayed fan, then it would be more similar biological and geneticatly to whenever rebloomers.

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Autmirislvr@aol.com
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 7:15 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)

Chuck, How do you distinguish between Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers?  When do each bloom in your area? 
<<Summer Rebloomers get going, so proably is a whenever rebloomer>>
I'm afraid I've used the terms as interchangable.  Things like All Revved Up & Returning Chameleon (just to name a couple) can start blooming in July (summer for me) and often bloom each month until fall frost.  This year RC and Over and Over are the only ones that have done this in my garden, but many others have in the past. 
Betty Wilkerson
Bridge In Time Irises
KY Zone 6

-----Original Message-----
From: irischapman@aim.com
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)

Forever Violet
Blueberry Tart
Autumn Jester
Summer Encore
Wizzard Of Hope
Precious Little Pink

All except PLP are SDB from Forever Blue. PLP is an IB that reblooms often, and usually before Summer Rebloomers get going, so proably is a whenever rebloomer

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Chaney <billchaney@ymail.com>
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 5:44 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)

Hi Chuck,

Could you list a few iris besides Forever Blue that you would call whenever bloomers?


From: "irischapman@aim.com" <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 12:29:44 PM
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)

What Again is a bit of a mystery.  I've had it and lost it several times. It hasn't been a good rebloomer for me and I'm not sure if it is a summer rebloomer or not. When it has rebloomed for me it was late enough in the season to make it's classification uncertain. 

Grape Cordial does not rebloom for me and so far I haven't gotten Double Your Fun to make it throgh a fisrt winter.

Be Happy has bloomer relatively early for me., but still well after Immortality.

Terry Atkin made the cross of What Again X Forever Blue, and did not get any rebloomers.  So a big diffeence on reciprocal crosses.  I got another piece of What Again and want to make reciprocal croses of WA and FB to see what si going on here.

So  while WA gave lots of rebloomers as pollen parent it didn't for Terry as pod parent.  It should have if What Again is a fall cyclic rebloomer or if it is a whenever rebloomer, so it very well be a summer rebloomer that carries the genes that FB needed. 

My classification so far is the initial classification. I wouldn't be surprized to find several subgroups or other variations  of rebloom genetics. So far an initial start of genetic classification.

To distinguish whenever rebloomers from summer rebloomers, you need to look at initial rebloom. Summer rebloomers need to have flower bud initiated  before they rebloom, whenever rebloomers don't.  Flower bud is initiated after plant has reached maturity and has 6 days of min temperature in range of 16-21 C ,. At least TBs do. May very well be different with SDB.

Whenever rebloomers, such as Forever Blue et ilk will rebloom much much earlier then summer rebloomers. I'm speculating that what is happening is a weakness of apical dominance resetting vernalization.  Vernalization is an epigenetic state, set by the cool days of fall/winter. Once a plant has been vernalized, all  of it's cells are set in that genetic state.  As increases usually don't carry vernalizatiuon with them, it would seem that the main flower stalk resets vernalization in the plant and the increases (normally) . In the wheneever rebloomers ( at least with mine) ther is extra quick growth, so the increases may very well be too large to be reset to a non-vernalized state by apical dominance in spriong. Thus the increases bloom when they reach maturity.  A working theory for now.

In any case the whenever rebloomers  don't need the temperature to set flower bud, so rebloom much earlier

Summer rebloomers go directly from  flower bud initiation to bloom, not needing eithr vernalization or photoperiod to trigger bloom.

To distinguish sporatic  as to what genetic type, (aside from test crosses) it would be necessary to see iff they bloom earlier then, say, Queen Dorothy.

Keep track of those with maiden summer bloom. I've done that with mine this year. It wil;l be interesting t osee what they do in later years.

My best guess at what is happening with maiden summer bloom comes from some research on ardiopsis.  Some seeds that inherit a defective bloom gene will  be set into total plant vernalization by stratification of seeds. And not have vernalization reset by germination. Thus they act as if they had already been vernalized.   Thus they have genes that may contribute to rebloom, but perhaps not stong enough for rebloom.  Again, morew to find out.

I still only have theories on what is making whenever rebloomers do their thing. I'm still looking carefully and tying to sort it all out. Always more to discover.

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@ cs.com>
To: iris-photos@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 4:03 am
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)


Hello Chuck
Do you call What Again a summer rebloomer?
Crossed with Forever Blue, it has given fabulous rebloomers, like your fabulous Autumn Jester that bloomed 4 times this year and Blueberry Tart, that bloomed 3 times. There is also Forever Violet and Summer Recall, that i don't have here, but must be good rebloomers too, mustn't they?
And what about Be Happy ? Here , it is also a summer rebloomer, and, crossed with Forever Blue,  Aitken got Double Your Fun and Grape Cordial!
There is also Cry Baby, that reblooms every summer here.
I have used profusely Forever Blue since you've sent it to me, have a look:
here are the crosses i made with Forever Blue this year:
pod pol seeds
B178= sangone x autumn circus forever blue 14
Blue Chip Stock forever blue 5
breezy blue forever blue 24
Desi Brouwer forever blue 3
forever maruchi 7
forever C144A = Plum-Plum X All That Magic 8
forever miss meredith 4
forever el presidente 12
forever B247A= sailor x stingray 8
forever blue B074A= james x forever blue 29
forever blue B109=experiment X forever blue 8
forever blue date 14
forever blue C044C= cry x A045B= (sapph jewel x what) 18
forever blue stingray 2
forever blue B178= sangone x autumn circus  
forever blue ride the tiger
summertime blues forever blue 25

and the crosses from last year:
A044A= red heart x plum forever 8
A048F= djinn X bedford lilac forever 8
B204C= step ahead x forever blue forever 3
B306A=stingray x baby pr forever 11
bedford lilac forever 25
detroit forever 9
forever A020B-RE=whatXsapph jew 18
forever ozark 22
forever ruby 10
forever blue A020B-RE=whatXsapph jew 28
forever blue B156A=forever x cry 16
forever blue over & over 20
pod pol seed
captured spirit forever blue 33
elegant lass forever blue 45
eternal bliss forever blue 11
forever blue cheeky 14
forever blue A021A= Smell  X Plum 17
forever blue prank 13
forever blue claire doodle 5
forever blue punk 11
forever blue honky tonk blues 4
hell cat forever blue 9
immortality forever blue 24
love's tune forever blue 8
mariposa skies forever blue 21
pink fawn forever blue 19
roman noir forever blue 29
sailor forever blue 14
sky king return forever blue 16
snapie forever blue 30
thalasso forever blue 13
ticketty boo forever blue 24
voila forever blue 3
wizard's return forever blue 22
2006 :
pod pol
az ap forever blue 18
breakers forever blue 8
eramosa skies forever blue 17
experiment forever blue 30
forever blue captive sun 11
forever blue star of africa 8
forever blue chubby cheeks 7
forever blue cry baby 0
james bond forever blue 28
long john forever blue 14
mezza cartuccia forever blue 5
roman noir forever blue 23
step ahead forever blue 18
westar forever blue 8
Now, some exciting results:
here are the ones that maiden bloomed this summer (we'll see next year if they really are rebloomers, but it is a good omen),
this is the whole list, there are many from Forever Blue, and also from What Again:
B032B=cream X frankincense 07_12
B032C = Cream & Peaches X Franckincense 10_09
B297C=et bliss x punk 08_08
C014A= midsummer's eve x rom ev  09_09
C017B= miss nellie x buc arcade 09_02
C022A= demon x altar fire 08_30
C044B= cry x A045B= (sapph jewel x what) 08_29
C065A= A034B= (high wire x what ) X  unknown  08_16
C065B= (A034B= high wire x what ) X  unknown 08_14
C065D= (A034B= high wire x what ) X  unknown 07_22
C065E= (A034B= high wire x what ) X  unknown 08_09
C065F= A034B= (high wire x what ) X  unknown  08_16
C067D= (A038E = gypsy boy x hot) X aut tan  08_27
C067E= (A038E = gypsy boy x hot) X aut tan 10_17
C078B= blueberry tart X A045B= (sapph jewel x what) 08_27
C080B= capt spirit x forever 08_17
C080C= capt spirit x forever 09_04
C090A=dark crystal x autumn jester  08_16
C095A= dixie x cry 09_04
C105B= forever x punk 07_29
C138B=pink fawn X forever 07_05
C138C=pink fawn X fforever 07_18
C138D= pink fawn xforever 08_15
C139A= plenitude x cry  08_20
C144A= plum x all that magic 08_13
C160A= serenity X (A045B= sapph jewel x what) 07_27
C167A= sparkplug X (A023B= smelll x what) 09_10
C173A=  ticketty boo x forever 07_15
C173B=  ticketty boo x forever 08_12
C185A= fairy x elegant 08_09
C191A = (A045D=(sapph jewel x what)) X cheeky 07_26
C199= baby prince x ozark 09_07
C208A= cry x immortality  09_09
C209 = cry X Just teasing 09_27
C240A= punk x bounce back 08_22
C250A= tarheel x ozark 09_09
C262= wizard's x stingray  09_19
C264= (A052A=tweety X flamingvic) Xmidsummer's eve 11_10
C265A= A056A-speculaas x altar fires 09_05
C272A=sunny cinnamon x midsummer's eve 08_01
C273= (A056A=(gypsy boy x rom ev) X cassis)  07_10
C295A= finsterwald x hot  08_22
C312= nth jewel x pinch  08_24
C322A = Radiant Love X Bijtje:(pelexhot) 09_15
C330A= voila x all that magic  09_05
C331= voila X (A034B= high wire x what) 08_31
C343= angel heart x banana 07_20
C348B = Zing Me X Romantic Evening 09_12
C350A = Evercool X Popstar  09_23
C358A = Low Ho Silver X Immortality 11_05
C360= many manalos x et bliss 08_31
C364A= pink pele x rom ev 08_25
C375B= smash x miss nellie  08_27
C380A= aglow again x midsummer's eve 08_06
C382E= step ahead X A045L(= sapph jewel x what) 08_07
C383A= elegant lass x forever 07_30
C383B= elegant lass x forever 08_05
C387A= smash x elegant 08_31
C399 = Dante's Inferno X A001A ( baby bengal x Tiger Honey ) 09_13
C411A = Angelic Wings X What Again 09_20
C411B = Angelic Wings X What Again 10_03
C411C = Angelic Wings X What Again 10_07
C411D = Angelic Wings X What Again 10_10
C411E = Angelic Wings X What Again 10_31
C437A= gold reprise x (A023C=(smelll x what)) 08_13
C458= skyking returns x cry  08_26
C482A=unknown TB X unknown 07_25
C482B=unknown TB X unknown 08_15
C482C= unknown TB x unknown 08_30
C494A=unknown X unknown 08_16
It will be more interesting to see what really reblooms next year, but think it would be good food for thought.
NB: Betty, have you noticed all the seedlings from Midsummer's Eve, that is a child from Immortality!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 7:44 PM
Subject: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)

At times it takes close observation to distinguish what type of rebloomer you have. A plant that reblooms later in season may be a summer rebloomer genetically, but not have had size earlier in season to trigger bloom. So you would need to have noted that it was at size (leaf maturity) to have summer rebloom, and have it sit there and not rebloom when opportunity presents. Opporunity based on weather factors, but you can use plant markers such as Immortality and Queen dorothy as markers.

Also you can have Fall cyclic rebloomers put up a summer bloom, but on a fan that should have bloomed in spring, but was just missing all factors needed. You can tell this by checking rhizome to see if it is a mother  fan blooming or an increase. If on a mother fan, then consider this to not be a summer rebloomer, until you get a summer bloom on an increase.

There is absolutly no doubt in my mind that Summer Rebloomers and Fall cyclic rebloomers are different genetically. I had made numerous crosses of Forever Blue with summer rebloomers, nary a rebloom seedling out of  hundreds of seedlings.  Many rebloomers out of FB X fall cyclic rebloomers.  Far far past any level of significance you could apply to this.

Many instances of Fall cyclic rebloomers from cross of  Fall cyclic  rebloomers X oncers. George Sutton had written and article on this a couple of years back.

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Mann <lmann@lock-net. com>
To: iris@hort.net; iris-photos@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sat, Nov 7, 2009 1:28 pm
Subject: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on photos group)

[so folks trying to find info in the archives are more likely to find
the discussion, I've moved my comments there as well as photos]

Too soon in attempted rebloom crosses to say for sure, but so far,
rebloom seems to be acting like a full recessive trait (i.e., 1/36 fall
cycle from two half "summer" rebloom parents). Climate interaction and
multiple genetic factors makes it hard to interpret data, but easy
enough to figure out what I want to change.

I'm still not totally convinced that fall cycle and "summer" (i.e.
jul/aug in my climate) bloom are separate genes. With only maiden
bloom, it's too soon to tell how many/if any of the late fall bloom this
year is really rebloom, much less whether it's cycle or summer.

However, if your theory holds for my climate, Chuck, based on leaf
count, it looks like they will all be late cycle.

If they are separate genes, most/all of the "summer" bloomers here also
have cycle rebloom genes.

But am hoping that whatever other factors are operating in plants that
<can> bloom in July and Aug in California have a chance of combining
with plants carrying Jul/Aug genes here to produce plants that will
thrive in my growing conditions and at least bloom by Sept. I'm hoping
to combine traits of my plants that thrive in summer high humidity and
erratic rainfall with those of cultivars that bloom in CA summer heat.

May not be possible, but I figure it's worth a try.

So far, the only west coast summer bloomers that have rebloomed here are
FEED BACK and GOLDEN IMMORTAL. At least those are the only two I can
think of. MARTY RICHARDS is alive, but doesn't rebloom. MARIPOSA
AUTUMN is a strong growing, reliable, fairly early cycle rebloomer here.

Chuck replied:
<Fall Cyclic maturity seems to act like a dominant factor, so no need
to cross it with an other Fall cyclic rebloomer. Just a plant with fast
growth and low "plant Maturity" leaf count.>

I said:
<To get away from all this late cycle rebloom here, for next year's
rebloom crosses, I hope to mix the late cycle genes from a few things
exclusively with west coast "summer" bloomers to see if that will get
the right mixture of rebloom genes to at least get earlier fall bloom.>

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