Helen & James,
Helen, please excuse my tardiness in getting in my two cents relative to
your questions about I. pseudacorus and
versicolor. You asked about the arrangement of the leaves as they come out of
the rhizome. I am not aware of how
to use leaf arrangements to distinguish the species. You also asked if I. giganticaerulea blooms looked different enough to
distinguish them from versicolor.
The blooms of the Louisiana irises, I.
virginica and I. versicolor follow they basic iris bloom structure: however the
Louisiana iris
blooms are usually larger, but again that is very variable. The Louisiana irises (both the species and
hybrids) tend to go somewhat semi-dormant in the south during the summer while
virginica does not. However, there
is considerable overlapping of the bloom season. Regardless, they don?t
cross. The only known supposedly
cross that I am aware of is Durio?s ?Little Caillet? which is suppose to be a
cross of a tetraploid Louisiana iris hybrid and
I. virginica.
James, I get the impression that I am much more down on
I. pseudacorus than you. Pseudacorus can be extremely aggressive
in wetlands and I have seen large stands where it has crowded out the native
plants including native irises. It is true that it is much less aggressive in
drier habitats; but it can easily escape and colonize wetland habitats.
I was also an academic for some time; however, regardless if one is an
academic or not, curiosity is a very excellent attribute to have. As James has
pointed out there are some very experience folks on the forum, and I bet if
Helen posts some good pictures of the irises and give some details on their
morphology, someone will ID them.
Best,
Vic
----- Original Message -----
From: J*@BELLSOUTH.NET
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:22
PM
Subject: Re: [iris-species] Virginica
"Contraband Girl" was Re: Distinguishing Pseudacorus from Versicolor?
Dear H,
I am also an academic; I do not suffer from OCD. I enjoy
OCD. However, it takes time to find somethings out, so if you have a good blue
apogon iris, relax. There are some extremely experience folk on this
list, and if you post photos next spring, of photos you have from this spring,
you are very likely to get a positive identification, at least to species if
not to variety.
Who knows which ice age pushed the Lousianias so far
south, but they bloom later than versicolor and virginica, so a cross is less
likely there, if not impossible.
I live in an old, 1950s, burb "Oak Forest," of
about 140 well spaced homes, now on the very south side of the city
about 5 miles from the center of Asheville. We collectively own 4 acres facing
US 25, a major highway, which is preserved as parkland, with a nice stream
running through it, which buffers the neighborhood from highway noise I am
three crooked blocks in, but higher in elevation.
Long ago I learned that it is easier to ask for
forgiveness than to ask permission, so I planted iris that like wet feet on
this small stream bank 10 years ago when I moved into this
neighborhood. Downstream, South of our main entrance, I
planted pseudacorus. Upstream I planted a variety of lavegetae [Sorry,
with PhD in hand I never learned to spell, nor have any motivation to]
including Ensata, Virginica , Versacolor, and Lousianas.
On one corner, between well established azalias I have
put in a back row of red daylillies and a front row of small siberians. and on
another corner, a bed of white spurias, all overflow from my garden. I get
praise and thanks ffrom others.
I am monitoring, casually this stream as it flows 1/2
mile by a bank, and another 1/2 mile to a pond in front of the High School serving the S. part of the county, and
then into a small lake, and then eventually into the French Broad River, The
French Broad, a very large river for mountainous regions since it drains such
a large basin of temperate rain forests which has no other outlet, and which
flows north, also unusual for an American river, into the Tennessee, and
ultimatelly into the Mississippi at Paducah, KY. Pseudacorus is not
so invasive, for I have not seen any down stream yet, but given 1000 years it
may be hybridizing with the Lousianas in the Delta.
But what is the worst that he could do? It may
even prevent erosion, and could also serve as a buffer filter, so I am not
going to worry about it.
There are worse invaders, I do not worry about
kudzu. It is a legume, and therefore a nitrogen setter, and can be
pulled out and fed to cattle. I think our worse invasive scourge is Chinese
bittersweet, actually pretty, but it destroys our native bittersweet. Second
only to poison ivy as a pest.
See how I enjoy my OCD??
James
----- Original Message -----
From: h*@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:17
PM
Subject: [iris-species] Virginica
"Contraband Girl" was Re: Distinguishing Pseudacorus from Versicolor?
Hi James,
Yeah, the only problem with the Pseudacorus was that
it had been planted
at the upstream end of an open waterway during a
stream restoration.
Our municipal storm and sewer systems are separate
so our stormwater
pipes empty directly into streams. The engineering to
manage the force
of the stormwater and keep a natural environment (vs.
turning it into a
culvert) is actually pretty impressive. The stream bed
and banks were
graded and completely rebuilt and the wetland was put in
so storm water
would spread over a large area and then flow into the
stream at lower
velocity. Of course with the water goes seed.
But
otherwise Pseudacorus was actually very pretty and a strong hardy
plant.
I can see why it would be desirable in a more controlled
situation. My
neighbor has some in her garden pond she keeps contained
in a bucket and
it works quite well for her.
My interest in identifying the blue iris
now is one of curiosity. I am
an academic (for good or for ill!) so I
want all the pieces of the
puzzle to fit - even if there's no good
purpose to it. I just can't
help myself.
:)
Interesting
about Sestosa and Virginica, now do you know if "virginal
virginica" or
that bad boy Sestosa got together with
giganticarulea?
-Helen
--- In iris-species@yahoogroups.com,
"James Harrison PhD" <JBHPHD@...>
wrote:
>
> I say,
relax already, as long as you have a blue/ purple iris. I agree
not to
feature pseudacorus.
>
> Theory has it that during one of the
ice ages, that Alaskan Setosa
move further and further south, and married
our virginica, and when the
ice retreated there was a child called
versicolor, in NE with exactly
the additive number of chromosomes of our
virginal virginica + Sestosa..
>
> I live in Asheville, NC 2000'
above the coastal wetlands, where it is
much cooler and I cannot give
them wet feet at my house.. Here, neither
of these specis is so robust.
In fact, I am not able to tell them apart
with certainty, though I know
that I have both. I think they are
interfertile, and there are probably
many hybrids between them, or
should I say among them for I also have
some Setosa..
>
> Ensata, the Japanese Iris also has a central
vein, but it is not as
prominent as pseudacorus, but Ensata blooms much
later.
>
> My suggestion is, relax and enjoy. Get rid of the
yellow, if it
appears next year, but there is some use for pseudacorus,
if you want
it. I do in some locations.
>
> James
Harrison
>
> .
> ----- Original Message -----
>
From: hldlily
> To: iris-species@yahoogroups.com
>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 8:36 PM
> Subject: [iris-species]
Virginica "Contraband Girl" was Re:
Distinguishing Pseudacorus from
Versicolor?
>
>
> Hi Vic,
>
> If the
contractors made some "on the fly" subsitution because the
> nursery
was out of versicolor aanything is possible. The wetlands
> planting
was one of the last things they were doing as the contract
>
ended.
>
> Are there differences between the blue iris' in the
arrangement of
> the leaves as they come out of the
rhizome?
>
> I ask because I noticed that the Iris pseudacorus
had their leaves
> emerging "fan-like" from the water so if you were
to take a cross
> section it would be long and narrow (similar to the
garden bearded
> iris I have).
>
> The blue iris has
leaves that are nested in a somewhat cupped way
> towards the bottom
so the cross section would be more circular -
> approaching
"scallion-like" more than fan-like.
>
> Unfortunately I didn't
take a photo of the blue iris blooms. It
> seems, from the web pages I
looked at, that the Iris giganticaerulea
> blooms look different
enough from versicolor to distinguish them.
> (Is that
correct?)
>
> I'm encouraged by your reports of tall versicolor
(though still
> confused by the lack of a mid vein) so I hope that's
what it is. The
> Giganticaerulea looks beautiful and would be great
in a private
> garden, but it's not native anywhere on the East Coast
so it's not
> the best choice for an open Maryland
waterway.
>
> -Helen
>
>
> --- In iris-species@yahoogroups.com,
vwak@ wrote:
> >
> > Helen,
> >
>
>
> >
> > I have Iris 'Contraband Girl' growing in my
garden and yes under
> favorable conditions it will get as tall as you
describe. I also
> have other clones of Iris virginica that get as
tall as or taller
> than 'Contraband Girl.' However, when I feel the
leaves of
> I. 'Contraband Girl' between my thumb and fingers and
every other I.
> virginica that I have had experience with, I always
detect a central
> ridge area. It is much more pronounced on some
clones but I don't
> ever remember not feeling it. Is their any
possibility that they
> could have substituted one of the Louisiana
Iris species (e.g., I.
> giganticaerulea), as I have seen some
Louisiana type wild clones that
> will get pretty tall? If so, you
would not feel a central ridge on
> their leaves. However, I.
giganticaerulea blooms are not usually way
> down in the leaves as you
describe
> >
> >
> >
> > Vic
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From:
hldlily<mailto:hdeclercq@
> > To: iris-species@yahoogroups.com<mailto:iris-
>
species@yahoogroups.com
>
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:53 PM
> > Subject:
[iris-species] Virginica "Contraband Girl" was Re:
> Distinguishing
Pseudacorus from Versicolor?
> >
> >
> >
>
> Hi All
> >
> > Once the yellow iris were removed I've
had some time to ponder
> and Vic's
> > points have been
sinking in. I really don't see how the blue iris
> > planted by the
contracors can be versicolor. Those is standing
> water
> >
are taller than me. (I'm 5'5".) Their flowers were much lower than
>
> their taller leaves reaching only about midway in height, if
>
even.
> > Those in the nearby ground didn't grow as tall. The
plants in the
> > standing water are very vigorous having grown to
this height
> after being
> > planted out as peat pots last
spring 2007.
> >
> > As noted in earlier posts the leaves
were without prominent
> veining.
> > (On close insepection
there was numerous, ~15 veins, but no
> dominant
> > veins.)
They were also thinner than pseudacorus (3/4" vs. 1") and
> a
bit
> > bluer.
> >
> > Assuming the contractors
made a substitution, the only blue iris
> I could
> > find
that reaches heights of 6' was the Iris Virginica selection
> >
"Contaband Girl". Does anyone here grow that? If so can you tell
> me
if
> > your plants are consistent with my observations. If not,
any
> ideas?
> > It's no emergency now - I'm just curious.
:)
> >
> > -Helen
> >
> > --- In iris-species@yahoogroups.com<mailto:iris-species%
>
40yahoogroups.com>, <vwak@> wrote:
> > >
>
> >
> > > Hi Helen,
> > >
> >
>
> > >
> > > If the flowers are yellow
definitely yank the plants out. In my
> > experience pseudacorus
usually has a more prominent midrib than
> > versicolor; however,
now much more prominent does it have to be
> to make
> > an
ID? If one feels the leaves between their thumb and fingers,
>
the
> > midrib on pseudacorus, virginica, and versicolor usually
become
> evident
> > without actually looking at the leaf. I
should add that many wild
> > virginica populations that I am
familiar with in the southeast are
> > flushed with purple at the
base. All of these iris species are
> variable
> > in nature
and undoubtedly there are many ecotypes that have
> evolved
>
> responding to different environmental pressures. I suspect that
>
> pseudocorus will grow as well or maybe even better in the Mid-
>
Atlantic
> > than in the warmer areas along the Gulf coast It has
been my
> experience
> > that in areas where it gets little
winter chilling it blooms
> sparsely
> > even though it grows
robustly. Also, be aware that pseudacorus
> will
> > readily
reseeded itself in some areas. Even if the plants are not
> >
versicolor and the flowers are not yellow, it probably is an iris
>
worth
> > growing.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> > > I wish you much success in replanting the
watershed.
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > Vic
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message
-----
> > > From: hldlily<mailto:hdeclercq@
> >
> To: iris-species@yahoogroups.com<mailto:iris-species%
>
40yahoogroups.com><mailto:iris-species@yahoogroups.com<mailto:iris-
>
species%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May
21, 2008 1:06 AM
> > > Subject: Fw: [iris-species] Re:
Distinguishing Pseudacorus from
> > Versicolor?
> >
>
> > >
> > > Hi Vic,
> > > Both are
in bloom now, one yellow and the other blue The
> original
>
> > plans had only Iris versicolor and pseudocorus on them
along
> with
> > > other native plants such as
pickerelweed. They were then
> supposed to
> > >
substitute Cardinal Flower and additional iris versicolor for
>
the
> > > pseudocorus. Obviously that didnt' happen with 100%
accuracy so
> I
> > > can't be really sure of
anything!
> > >
> > > One poster mentioned that
their versicolor has a few prominent
> veins
> > > and
that they were less sharpley pronounced than in
> pseudocorus.
On
> > > the web I've found mention of its foliage being ribbed
yet on
> other
> > > sites from close-up photos no veins
were obvious.
> > >
> > > Is Versicolor a variable
species in the wild? Also how much
> > > difference is there
between cultivars?
> > >
> > > Whatever blue iris we
have down there it is tall (some of it
> leaves
> > >
reach 5'), with flower stalks significantly lower than the
>
leaves,
> > > with smooth foliage that is somewhat narrower
(3/4" vs 1") and
> > > slightly darker bluer green than the
pseudacorus leaves. It may
> be a
> > > mystery but the
smooth foliage has the advantage of making it
> easily
> >
> distinguishable from the pseudocorus. (When I say smooth I mean
>
no
> > > prominent veins. All veins are the same size and quite
small,
> > > visible only on close inspection, with about 15 of
them running
> > > closely spaced next to each other up the
strap.)
> > >
> > > The Mid-Atlantic has fairly mild
growing conditions so I
> imagine the
> > > pseudocorus
would grow pretty well here - though probably not
> as well
>
> > as in Florida!
> > >
> > > -Helen
>
> >
> > > --- In
> > iris-species@yahoogroups.com<mailto:iris-species%
>
40yahoogroups.com><mailto:iris-species%40yahoogroups.com>,
>
> vwak@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From:
Vwak@<mailto:Vwak@
> > > > To:
> > iris-species@yahoogroups.com<mailto:iris-species%
>
40yahoogroupscom><mailto:iris-species%40yahoogroups.com><mail\
>
> to:iris-
> > > species@yahoogroups.com<mailto:species%
>
40yahoogroups.com><mailto:species%40yahoogroups.com>>
>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 8:49 PM
> > > >
Subject: Re: [iris-species] Re: Distinguishing Pseudacorus
>
from
> > > Versicolor?
> > > >
> > >
>
> > > > Helen,
> > > >
> > >
>
> > > >
> > > > I have been reading the
postings of how to distinguish I.
> > > pseudacorus, I.
virginica, and I. versicolor with much interest.
> > >
>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
First, I agree that pseudacorus should be removed from the
> > >
habitat. In my part of the world (SE US) it can take over and
>
crowd
> > > out desirable native wetland plants, including
native irises.
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> > > > If one is familiar with the above mentioned
irises one can
> tell
> > > most pseudacorus by looks and
size. It usually is taller than
> the
> > > other
species.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
> > > > I am very dubious about distinguishing virginica
by the
> cauline
> > > leaves frequently overtopping the
flowers. I grow some virginica
> > > clones originally collected
from the wild where the norm is for
> the
> > > flowers to
be above the leaves. I have seen wild populations
> where
> >
> that is the norm.
> > > >
> > > >
>
> > >
> > > > Even though versicolor is not native
to the lower south, I
> grow
> > > some clones originally
from further north. Helen's statement
> that
> > > the
versicolor leaves in the area under question are perfectly
> > >
smooth, i.e., they have no center ridge surprised me. In far as
>
I
> > > can recall, I have always seen a center ridge on
all
> pseudacorus,
> > > virginica, and versicolor clones
that I have looked at. I
> > > immediately went out in my garden
and the versicolor in my
> garden all
> > > had center
ridges.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
> > > > Is it possible that some other species of iris
has been
> planted?
> > > >
> > >
>
> > > >
> > > > Vic
> > >
>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
Victor W. Lambou
> > > >
> > > > Crawfordville
Florida
> > > >
> > > > Zone 8B
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
----- Original Message -----
> > > > From:
hldlily<mailto:hdeclercq@
> > > > To:
> > iris-species@yahoogroups.com<mailto:iris-species%
>
40yahoogroups.com><mailto:iris-species%40yahoogroups.com><mail\
>
> to:iris-
> > > species@yahoogroups.com<mailto:species%
>
40yahoogroups.com><mailto:species%40yahoogroups.com>>
>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 3:51 PM
> > > >
Subject: [iris-species] Re: Distinguishing Pseudacorus from
> >
> Versicolor?
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > Hi Kenneth and James,
> > > >
> > >
> I went down to the stream and since versicolor is also in
> bloom
I
> > > was
> > > > able to identify the plants
and compare their foliage. Sure
> > > enough,
> > >
> the pseudacorus has a nice sharp ridge down the center that is
>
> > easily
> > > > seen and felt while the versicolor
we have is totally smooth.
> > > Even a
> > > >
lay person like myself couldn't mistake them - now that,
>
thanks
> > > to
> > > > the species-iris group, I
know what to look for.
> > > >
> > > > The
watershed director is very happy that we won't have to
> pull
>
> > > everything up. Besides the painful thought of losing
hundreds
> of
> > > blue
> > > > iris we
would have had a freshly denuded landscape, a
> landscape
> >
> just
> > > > recovering from all the construction work
last year.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks so much for
your help!
> > > >
> > > > -Helen
> >
> >
> > > > --- In
> > iris-species@yahoogroups.com<mailto:iris-species%
>
40yahoogroups.com><mailto:iris-species%40yahoogroups.com><mail\
>
> to:iris-species%
> > > 40yahoogroups.com>, Kenneth
Walker <kenww@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > >
> > Helen,
> > > > >
> > > > >
Looking at several varieties of each species in my garden,
> > >
> pseudacorus
> > > > > does have a prominent ridge in
the center of the leaf
> composed
> > > of a
> >
> > > single vein. Versicolor has a less prominent ridge
composed
> of
> > > 3
> > > >
veins.
> > > > > I'd suggest someone compare leaves from a
sample of plants
> in
> > > the
> > > >
> wetland to see if they can be divided into two categories.
>
Each
> > > > > volunteer could be armed with a sample leaf
from each
> species
> > > when
> > > > >
identifying the pseudacorus for eradication.
> > > >
>
> > > > > Ken Walker
> > > >
>
> > > > > James Harrison PhD wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > > > Pseudacorus has a sharp vein
in the middle of each leaf.
> Some
> > > >
other
> > > > > > iris have a less prominent vein, like
JI, but I think
> this is
> > > > the
> > >
> > > easy way to pick out Pseudacorus.
> > > > >
>
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
>
>
>
>
|
