Re: Re: Re: HIST:Swerti vs. Swertii & a bit on plicata origins

Hi Tom (and everyone),

'Tiffany' is one that I was trying to remember that has falls that tend to
"pinch".  It is a more elongate flower than 'Swertii', and it is a
tetraploid, clearly not I. pallida, but perhaps with some of the same
ancestry? [I'm having a hard time giving up that second "i" in 'Swerti', it
goes against the grain for this botanist].

Tom, the fact that only the plicatas were "pinched" in your seedlings
certainly implies to me that the plicata gene and the pinched falls are
linked, at least in this case.  I didn't notice this in the photos till you
pointed it out.  Perhaps the pinched falls can be expressed while the
actual plicata pattern is suppressed, as is the plicata pattern in
'Kupari'.  It doesn't explain why I have a smallish blue I. pallida that
tends to have pinched (actually more just a bit "tucked") falls, perhaps it
carries the plicata gene(s) too?  I wonder if there is a blue that is
dominant to plicata (or at least that suppresses its expression).  I'll be
watching the shape of the flower more closely this spring.  I think I have
photos of the blue, and of my (apparently glaciata) white, and I'll try to
remember to post them later this week.  I've wondered if my white is the
same as 'Kupari', but my impression is that it is a smaller plant.  Another
thing is that 'Kupari' is rot prone for me (odd for a pallida), and my
unnamed white pallida never rots.  I may get 'Kupari' flowers to compare
with it this spring.

If I get a few days that I'm actually at home while they're blooming this
year, I think I'm going to be doing a lot of controlled I. pallida
pollinations.  I'm particularly curious to see what happens when pallida
type plicatas are crossed with one another.  But I'd like to cross whites
(perhaps I have two glaciata pallidas?), and it would be fun to cross that
small blue with a plicata.  Regardless, I should get lots of nice I.
pallida clones out of the deal, and I really like I. pallida.  I'm also
curious to try and figure out which clones are heterozygous for plicata and
which are homozygous.  It would also be interesting to know why the pattern
of 'Fairy' is so unique (at least among my pallida type plicatas).

I have a few that by published ancestry should be tetraploid or triploid,
but they look like pure pallida to me.  It will be interesting to try and
see if they are fertile diploids or not.  Among these are 'Prince Charming'
and 'True Charm', and I suspect that 'True Delight' may be from the same
parents (in fact, I'd bet that all three may have come from one same pod).
I'm guessing that 'Oriflamme' had nothing to do with them, and that they
are perhaps selfed from a 'St. Claire' mother flower.

I just figured out that there are two 'Prince Charming' TB Iris.  Didn't
know there was an older one - hardly ever look at Check Lists One is
Sturtevant 1924, and the other is Williamson 1988.  They don't look much
alike.  The first is a standard old pallida type violet on white plicata,
and the second is basically a light purple neglecta plicata with brownish
shading (a hint of yellow) on the standards and what I would tentatively
call a zonal luminata-plicata pattern on the falls.

Looks like I'll be growing 'Oriflamme' now too.  I want to see what happens
when I cross it with I. pallida types.  Does anyone know if 'St. Claire'
still exists?

The links below are to web sites of the Iris Bertrand web site, Argyle
Acres, Iris City, Woodland Iris Gardens, HIPS, and to Rick Tasco's photo
gallery.  My photos are at home and I won't be able to get to them for a
while - these are probably much better anyway.

'Prince Charming' the newer TB (Williamson 1988;)
http://www.iris-bertrand.com/fiches/prince-charming.html
http://www.iris-garden.com/index1pq.html

'Prince Charming' the older pallida type (Sturtevant 1924; 'Oriflamme' X
'St. Claire'):
http://www.worldiris.com/public_html/Quick_Fixes/Q_Prince_Charming.html

'True Delight' a pallida type (Sturtevant 1924; ?parentage)
http://www.worldiris.com/public_html/Quick_Fixes/Q_True_Delight.html

'True Charm' a pallida type (Sturtevant 1920; 'St. Claire' X 'Oriflamme')
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364998/119366067nbSxLr

There is a nice comparison of mostly pallida type plicatas at the HIPS web
site at:
http://www.worldiris.com/public_html/Small_bl_plics/Display_frame.html
'Mme. Louesse' is apparently not a pallida type, but rather seems to be of
I. pallida X I. variegata ancestry; however, not all the plants with this
name are the same.  The rest are pallida types, and seem to be pure pallida
to me, though I need to double check on 'Jeanne d' Arc' and 'Damozel'
(working from memory here).

'Mme. Louesse', a better picture (the photo above and this are of two
different cultivars!)
The plicata pattern is definitely strong in this one.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364880/119379373LlkXeb

similar is 'Mme. Chobout'.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364880/138800087qQsDmC

Some more shots of pallida type plicatas:

'Fairy'
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364810/119372290LBgtMH

'Little Freak', usually only makes six falls with no standards, but
otherwise typical for the group.  When it makes normal standards it closely
resembles 'Mme. Chereau', but I haven't done a direct vein by vein
comparison yet. (?perhaps a sport of 'Mme. Chereau' or a similar one?).
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364880/119377016LGNjsi

'Mme. Chereau'
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364880/119379398cIIwhb

'Parisiana'
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364940/119380878OSXCiM

'Rheinfels'
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364940/119386820NJthwY

'Swertii'
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364940/119389063OALSpl

Below, some examples of blending of I. pallida with I. variegata.  There
are hundreds more.

Tom these are for you to compare with your 'Kupari' hybrids, if you don't
already know about them.  There are several more that look sort of like
this.  Here are 'Lavandulacea', 'Mady Carriere', 'May Allison', and 'Nuee
d' Orage'.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364880/119376882BOFsTt
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364880/119377581FZLRPz
http://www.iriscitygardens.com/images/tallbearded/mayallison.jpg
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364880/119379173bAKygt

'Clematis' is basically one  of these, but with the six falls/no standards
mutation.  It resembles 'Queen of May', but lighter, when it produces
normal standards.
http://www.argyleacres.com/pics/300s/Clematis300.jpg

If you look at 'Flavescens', 'Joyance', 'Mrs', George Darwin', 'Mrs. Horace
Darwin', and others that are similar, I think you'll see the similarities
too, although the anthocyanin is suppressed as a ground color.  There are
many of these as well.
http://www.worldiris.com/public_html/Quick_Fixes/Q_Flavescens.html
http://www.iriscitygardens.com/images/tallbearded/joyance.jpg
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364880/142879498XzNpMe
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364880/119379572zwErKj
G. P. Baker is a pale yellow one of these too, but I didn't find a link to
a photo (I know I have one at home).

'Quaker Lady', 'Queen of May', 'Rhythm', and 'Rose Unique' are similar
examples, but where the anthocyanin is more strongly expressed.  You have
to remember that only the pattern of the falls is expressed in 'Rhythm, but
sometimes it produces normal standards, and looks a bit like 'Queen of
May'.
http://www.iriscitygardens.com/images/tallbearded/quakerlady.jpg
http://community.webshots.com/album/119364940CxSSGY/1
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364940/119386660TqVaeA
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364940/119387147peKHAK
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364940/142879991YIPvxl
By the way, a large planting of 'Rose Unique' is spectacular in flower.

'Taj Majal' and 'Wyomising' lean a bit more toward I. variegata in pattern,
but the similarity to the previous is there, and there is a similarity to
at least one of your seedling "plicatas".
http://www.worldiris.com/public_html/JPEGs/Taj_Mahal.JPEG
http://community.webshots.com/photo/119364998/119367133NomdkU

There are lots of others with striped to near solid falls and (usually)
paler standards that take more strongly after I. variegata in pattern.
'Apache', 'Argent', 'Black Prince', 'Col. Candelot', 'Demi Deuil',
'Geomori', 'Honorabile', 'Iris King', 'Jacquesiana', 'Loreley', 'Marsh
Marigold', 'Mildred Presby', 'Perfection', 'Pretty Butterfly', 'Red Cloud',
'Rhages', 'Rhein Nixe', 'Romeo', 'Sambucina', 'Troost', 'Vingolf', and many
more come to mind.

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