Re: Re: HYB: how many seedlings?

Well it is possible to "know" some potential of the parents in advance and what to expect from a cross.  Say for example if one crosses two blue selfs, one light blue and one dark blue, then we would expect to get blues in various light to dark shades ...and maybe a few whites depending on thier genetic background.  If the goal was not to obtain plicatas from the cross (and neither parent was a plicata) then the need to grow more seedlings to obtain selfs would not be necessary.   Now, I would imagine one would only cross two blues with exceptional characteristics in all respects and probably from different lineages.  If a vigorous blue is crossed with a blue with one that is not vigorous then I would definately cull for the top 20% vigorous growers. 

More seedlings would be necessary to obtain plicatas and we would like more plicatas to choose from to have a selection from the best ones from the cross, not just the chance one.  The same might go for crossing two yellows to obtain pinks as in crossing the blue selfs for plicatas.  

This is just taking into account one characteristic per cross (pinks and plicatas) and you were asking about multiple characteristics.  There really is no way to "know", but an educated guess can be made by studying a cultivar's pedigree or looking at the types of seedlings that you or others have produced from it.  Yes, this does require some research on your part.  This could also be done by asking others what they have achieved by using a particular parent in their crosses or going on garden tours and observing other's seedlings as they are being selected.   But realistically these things are not an option for most people.  I rely mostly on pedigrees and observations within my seedling patch.  

It helps to know what the parentages of the parents are and what genes they might carry or to know what kinds of introduced cultivars or seedlings they have produced.  This is how you can "know" what to expect from a cross.   For most hybridizers I would think this is the case and most crosses are planned ahead of time with a goal in mind.  Some hybridizers are much more simple and cross two plants blooming at the same time that they feel are a good match or perhaps are just curious to see what happens.  I'm sure many cultivars have been produced this way and probably very very common in the early days of hybridizing.  Such as a an 'Beverly Sills' (a lycopene pink) with 'Starring' (a dark purple amoena).  And no... I haven't done this cross.  There would likely be a wide range of flower color patterns and colors I would imagine, but then again I could be wrong.  I would guess that most would have very nice flowers with good form and substance, but hard to say anything about vigor or bloomout.  There is no real way to "know" for for any one particular cross.  But you can make a very good guess and all the better if you have some actual observations to go on.  

I think it would be very difficult to discard seedlings based on size alone in a seedling pot.  Their behavior is usually quite different once in a garden soil.  They could be selected after they have had a few months to grow.  Foliage characteristics are more obvious then (i.e. grassy verses wide leaves, twisty leaves verses very straight, floppy verses rigid, maybe even offset production on a few, ect.) This would be the optimum time I would think to cull for the top 20, 40 or 60 percent.  But If I'm correct that is not what was proposed previosly in earlier emails.

Some examples that support culling at this later stage I will mention below.  

I had no idea when I started using 'Light Beam' that it could throw smaller flowered and shorter Border Beardeds.  Now I am using that knowledge to my advantage.  

I also knew about the pedigree of 'Halston' (a modern flower from MTB) and has lycopene and plicata in its background.  I expected it would produce various colors, patterns and sizes and it has.  It has nice foliage and produces plants with even nicer foliage when crossed with good growing plants.  It tends to lack flower subtance and the parent it is crossed with better have better than average petal substance as well as good form otherwise both are lost and tend to resemble 'Halston' strongly.  

I had also crossed 'Ambrosia Delight' and 'Chinese Treasure', both average growers.  It was the darnedest thing but EVERY ONE of the 100+ seedlings from that one very fertile pod I had gotten were very poor growers. They took two years to flower and were oddly very uniformly ugly in flower color and form... almost like they were clones!


Paul Archer
Raleigh, NC  Zone 7


-----Original Message-----
>From: Linda Mann <lmann@volfirst.net>
>Sent: Mar 22, 2006 2:22 AM
>To: iris- talk <iris@hort.net>
>Subject: [iris] Re: HYB: how many seedlings?
>
>Thanks Paul, for those examples from your own experience.  I will
>definitely hold over any seedlings I don't line out this first year.  It
>really does depend on the cross and how much variability there is, and
>how would anyone know in advance how much variability to expect in all
>the characteristics you mention?
>
>I've been skeptical about the fastest growing seedlings having the most
>"vigor".  Often the most rapid growth here can also be the most
>susceptible to freeze damage and subsequent rot.
>
>But I can also see Jim's point about having to wait extra years to see
>maiden bloom on some of the slow ones.  Or maybe not -if all the rapid
>growers die. .... Jim is in his 80s & still doing his own garden work,
>so time is more of a limitation for him than space.
>
>--
>Linda Mann east Tennessee USA zone 7/8
>East Tennessee Iris Society <http://www.korrnet.org/etis>
>American Iris Society web site <http://www.irises.org>
>talk archives: <http://www.hort.net/lists/iris-talk/>
>photos archives: <http://www.hort.net/lists/iris-photos/>
>online R&I <http://www.irisregister.com>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the
>message text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the
message text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS
Other Mailing lists | Author Index | Date Index | Subject Index | Thread Index