Re: Re: HYB: REB: Genetics
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: Re: HYB: REB: Genetics
  • From: B* W* <a*@aol.com>
  • Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:36:24 -0400 (EDT)
<<It took a long time to get rebloomers from Forever
lue. From the get go, FB was different.>>

Does it help to have the "whenever" gene on both sides?  Or does the results
seem random in retrospect?



I should have a little bloom on my 1st generation seedlings from Lumalite,
Baby Blessed & What Again this spring.  Sounds like I should have good bloom
on FB even though it's a first year plant here.

Betty W.


-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Mon, Mar 14, 2011 9:52 am
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: REB: Genetics


The Whenever rebloomers are definitely  a new type of rebloomers. Many
initial
rustrations from trying to breed
hem to summer rebloomers. It took a long time to get rebloomers from Forever
lue. From the get go, FB was different.  Seven bloom stalks on maiden bloom..
iblings and other SDB had usually one and occasionally two. Also multiple
ncreases.
Seems to be some plastid genetic effects. FB X What Again produced a high
ercentage of  rebloomers, mostly Whenever rebloomers. Terry Aitken did
everse cross, What Again X Forever Blue, and had no  rebloomers of any kind.
'm hoping to try this reverse cross here to  double check.
A lot of  whenever X TB are basically infertile. Robin Shadlow reports  one
IB
eedling that is fertile.  I grow  a massive number of the best seedlings from
B X TB and collect a few bee pods each year. Usually a small number of
eeds.
So working on transferring to TB.  May need to focus on having Whenever
ebloomers as pod parent.
Whenever Rebloomers and Summer Rebloomers seem to be mutations of normal
bloom
ycle. Whenever rebloomers may possibly be the way they are by virtue of the
ast growth. That is, the increases grow so quickly that they don't respond to
ernalization reset signal from  main fan.
Summer rebloomers are direct bloomers. Go directly from bud initiation to
rowth of bloom stalk. This is the mutation.  Or a possible unique combination
f bloom signals.  In any case other rebloom genes unlikely to have any
ffects on rebloom, positively or negatively.
But probably not a simple recessive but  possibly a recessive combined with
ne or more dominants, or a certain combination of secondary traits, ie
igour, fast growth etc.

till lots to sort out. But having a framework theory enables  matching
esults to expectations, which enhances our understanding.
Chuck Chapman


---Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Sun, Mar 13, 2011 7:32 pm
Subject: [iris] Re: HYB: REB: Genetics



 Whenever rebloomers don't need  a bud set temperature to start rebloom. They
ften start rebloom about one week after spring
loom, and can go for a full five months of bloom, every day a bloom. And do
ebloom in ag zone 2 as in Winnipeg Manitoba.
o Summer rebloomer will do this.
For me Renown is a summer rebloomer.
 A cross of  Victoria Falls X Forever
lue produced  FC  IB rebloomers. VF is a FC
ebloomer, but doesn't do so here. But the seedlings are among  the earliest
f the FC rebloomers here.If you select parentage for fast growth and low
mature leaf count, you do move
loom forward. It works as long as your temperature
o-operate.
See my post on Ca rebloomers. While  the crosses of  rebloomers with Ca
ebloomers can improve form, I haven't seen anything
o show  a contribution to  summer or FC rebloom.  No regrouping of genes that
ou couldn't account for by  the recovery of
ecessive component of summer rebloomers.
Many different possible explanations for occasional rebloomers.  The ones
that
ebloom in zone 8 and 9 only are what I call
alifornia rebloomers. These are the "facilitative vernalization"  plants with
enes originating from Mediterranean plants.
Chuck Chapman





--- Original Message ----
rom: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
o: iris@hort.net
ent: Sun, Mar 13, 2011 8:50 am
ubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: REB: Genetics of rebloom (was orange)

<I didn't mention  the California rebloomers.>>
Traditionally & officially, CA rebloomers have been called "sporadic
rebloomers," based on their behavior rather than where they occur.  I've used
the term "CA rebloom" when speaking to the general gardening public, since
many seem to recognize the term more readily.

As stated in an article in the RIS a couple of years ago, it's my opinion
hat
these and the summer rebloomers (my term) are the same with different
modifiers.  Modifiers being soil, temperature, moisture, etc. . The ones I
ee
bloom in the summer (thus my term "summer rebloomers") simply appear to need
weaker triggers or modifiers.  I believe they are currently recognized
judges
handbook) as "Multiple Blooming Irises."  Neither group requires the specific
set of modifiers needed for fall cycle rebloom.

This is what I privately call the "loosy goosey" gene, assuming that rebloom
is the presence of a gene/genes rather than the absence of a gene as
speculated by some.  Either way, it is something that comes from within the
plant rather than being supplied by the microclimate.

This is my opinion based on what I've observed in my garden over a period of
twenty five years and reports I've read from other locations.  I've spent
uch
of that time trying to transfer some of the genetics from the "Sporadic"
roup
to the "Multiple Bloom Irises" (or summer) group.  It's my opinion that the
mixing of the two sets of genes are responsible for "Suky" & "Lunar
hitewash"
and others of a more progressive form.
<<The summer rebloomers and Whenever rebloomers seem to be a recessive gene
combined with at least one dominant gene.>>
 "Fall Cycle" rebloom does appear more easy to obtain, but it is more
restricted in potential.  In an average year, my fall cycle begins on Oct 1
and our first freeze is Oct 15. Hardly worth the massive effort!   "Summer
Rebloomers" contain the ability to fall bloom, also.  Seedlings from this
breeding have appeared to be "fall cycle rebloomers," but suddenly throw
summer stalks.  Why not breed for the greater possibilities?

The things I've grown as "Summer Rebloomers" have the ability to bloom from
spring season till fall freeze.  Additional bloom in June, July, August,
September, and October.  Most years they do not bloom in all of these months
due to heat and/or drought.  I've seen All Revved Up bloom each of these
months in the same summer.  I've identified five of mine as having this
ability.


In addition, Total Recall, Renown and others have been reported to bloom
earlier than the average cycle rebloomer. Most were reported in July but
apparently they can rebloom in various summer months.  Some of there rebloom
more easily and more often than the others.

 "Whenever" implies a sporadic component, much the same as the CA (sporadic)
rebloomers.  Yet, the "Summer" group are sporadic too, dependent on
odifiers.

How are we to tell the "Whenever Rebloomers"  from the "Summer Rebloomers?"

Betty W.
Zone 6 (KY)




-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Sat, Mar 12, 2011 6:02 pm
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: REB: Genetics of rebloom (was orange)


I didn't mention  the California rebloomers.
But to try and clarify.  There are four different types of rebloom genetics,
s far as I can tell.
The  summer rebloomers and Whenever rebloomers seem to be a recessive gene
ombined with at least one dominant gene.
Fall cyili and California rebloomers seem to be a dominant trait. Note I'm
not
aying a dominant gene. It is actually a combination of traits, but end result
s treat as a dominant.
The temperature trigger for bud set  is same for  FC, Summer and  Cal
ebloomers. Whenever rebloomers are different in this characteristic.
While I had  originally thought  that FC rebloomers were responding to a
aylight trigger, I'm reconsidering this  in light of new data. I suspect a
ime at maturity  with bud set to be the trigger.  Similar in some respects to
al rebloomers. Still need to figure out differences. But Cal rebloomers need
uch more time as a mature plant. Live and learn.
Plants have clocks and calenders, but not sure how they use them. But clocks
o stop working when plant is in drought or heat dormancy
All rebloomers  can carry a primed rhizome over winter. This is easier and
ore likely in warmer climates. So  they can then have out of season bloom,
ith carry over from increases on primed  rhizomes. The increases in these
ases don't get reset.
Normally a  plant will reset  vernalization condition  in the increases by
he blooming. But off season set coupled with  wintering over seems to
revents (or interfere with) this reset. Part of this could be that increase
re too large by time main fan blooms, so reset doean't work.
I'm beginning to suspect that  we could  bring rebloom from Ca rebloomers
arlier into season by selection.  But not likely able to increase plant
ardiness unless these are trialed and selected in  more adverse climates.

huck Chapman





---- Original Message ----
rom: Linda Mann <lmann@lock-net.com>
o: iris@hort.net
ent: Sat, Mar 12, 2011 8:59 am
ubject: [iris] Re: HYB: REB: Genetics of rebloom (was orange)

'm a little confused by this, Chuck.  I understand what you are saying about
eaf count, vigor etc, but this (combined with your earlier posts) sounds as
f you are saying there are two different sets of genetics controlling rebloom
summer & cycle, the former recessive, the latter dominant), but the
xpression of rebloom (phenotype) is the same?
So there could be June & August (usually too hot in July here for the lines
of
rises that thrive in my growing conditions) bloom from either, if growing
eason is long enough and temperatures suitable?  So in a very mild winter,
ollowed by warm spring, and cool summer, the cycles could also bloom in
ummer?  So change in daylength isn't a factor in cycle rebloom?
If that's what you are saying, I don't believe it.  But that's just my gut
eaction, no data.
I can see that would apply to "CA" rebloomers, & if that's also dominant,
hat's definitely something I'd enjoy having here.  Some lines not as
ensitive to heat inhibiting bloom as some of the really healthy growers here.
Or is that what you are thinking re: cycle rebloomers, that they are actually
he same as CA, but with different temperature limitations? More tolerant to
eat, less to erratic cold.
Thought provoking ;-)
<By selecting  the most vigourous growers and ones with lowest mature leaf
ount, you move  bloom time forward.
The weather conditions that set flower buds is the same for summer rebloom
and
all cyclic.
The weather conditions that inhibit  rebloom is the same for both.
So if a plant matures fast enought to get bud set before  too warm weather
ets in, you will get  early fall cylcic rebloom.  Same with summer
ebloomers.>
Linda Mann east TN USA zone 7
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