Re: Re: HYB: REB: Genetics
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: Re: HYB: REB: Genetics
  • From: C* C* <i*@aim.com>
  • Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 21:31:46 -0400
 The highest number of Whenever Rebloomer seedlings was the cross of Forever
Blue X What Again.

The Whenever X Whenever  seems to produce 25%  whenever rebloomers. Proabably
will be higher when I can double up on the dominant genes, whatever they are.

Chuck Chapman








---- Original Message ----
From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Mon, Mar 14, 2011 11:36 am
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: REB: Genetics


<<It took a long time to get rebloomers from Forever

lue. From the get go, FB was different.>>



Does it help to have the "whenever" gene on both sides?  Or does the results

seem random in retrospect?







I should have a little bloom on my 1st generation seedlings from Lumalite,

Baby Blessed & What Again this spring.  Sounds like I should have good bloom

on FB even though it's a first year plant here.



Betty W.





-----Original Message-----

From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>

To: iris <iris@hort.net>

Sent: Mon, Mar 14, 2011 9:52 am

Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: REB: Genetics





The Whenever rebloomers are definitely  a new type of rebloomers. Many

initial

rustrations from trying to breed

hem to summer rebloomers. It took a long time to get rebloomers from Forever

lue. From the get go, FB was different.  Seven bloom stalks on maiden bloom..

iblings and other SDB had usually one and occasionally two. Also multiple

ncreases.

Seems to be some plastid genetic effects. FB X What Again produced a high

ercentage of  rebloomers, mostly Whenever rebloomers. Terry Aitken did

everse cross, What Again X Forever Blue, and had no  rebloomers of any kind.

'm hoping to try this reverse cross here to  double check.

A lot of  whenever X TB are basically infertile. Robin Shadlow reports  one

IB

eedling that is fertile.  I grow  a massive number of the best seedlings from

B X TB and collect a few bee pods each year. Usually a small number of

eeds.

So working on transferring to TB.  May need to focus on having Whenever

ebloomers as pod parent.

Whenever Rebloomers and Summer Rebloomers seem to be mutations of normal

bloom

ycle. Whenever rebloomers may possibly be the way they are by virtue of the

ast growth. That is, the increases grow so quickly that they don't respond to

ernalization reset signal from  main fan.

Summer rebloomers are direct bloomers. Go directly from bud initiation to

rowth of bloom stalk. This is the mutation.  Or a possible unique combination

f bloom signals.  In any case other rebloom genes unlikely to have any

ffects on rebloom, positively or negatively.

But probably not a simple recessive but  possibly a recessive combined with

ne or more dominants, or a certain combination of secondary traits, ie

igour, fast growth etc.



till lots to sort out. But having a framework theory enables  matching

esults to expectations, which enhances our understanding.

Chuck Chapman





---Original Message-----

From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>

To: iris <iris@hort.net>

Sent: Sun, Mar 13, 2011 7:32 pm

Subject: [iris] Re: HYB: REB: Genetics







 Whenever rebloomers don't need  a bud set temperature to start rebloom. They

ften start rebloom about one week after spring

loom, and can go for a full five months of bloom, every day a bloom. And do

ebloom in ag zone 2 as in Winnipeg Manitoba.

o Summer rebloomer will do this.

For me Renown is a summer rebloomer.

 A cross of  Victoria Falls X Forever

lue produced  FC  IB rebloomers. VF is a FC

ebloomer, but doesn't do so here. But the seedlings are among  the earliest

f the FC rebloomers here.If you select parentage for fast growth and low

mature leaf count, you do move

loom forward. It works as long as your temperature

o-operate.

See my post on Ca rebloomers. While  the crosses of  rebloomers with Ca

ebloomers can improve form, I haven't seen anything

o show  a contribution to  summer or FC rebloom.  No regrouping of genes that

ou couldn't account for by  the recovery of

ecessive component of summer rebloomers.

Many different possible explanations for occasional rebloomers.  The ones

that

ebloom in zone 8 and 9 only are what I call

alifornia rebloomers. These are the "facilitative vernalization"  plants with

enes originating from Mediterranean plants.

Chuck Chapman











--- Original Message ----

rom: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>

o: iris@hort.net

ent: Sun, Mar 13, 2011 8:50 am

ubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: REB: Genetics of rebloom (was orange)



<I didn't mention  the California rebloomers.>>

Traditionally & officially, CA rebloomers have been called "sporadic

rebloomers," based on their behavior rather than where they occur.  I've used

the term "CA rebloom" when speaking to the general gardening public, since

many seem to recognize the term more readily.



As stated in an article in the RIS a couple of years ago, it's my opinion

hat

these and the summer rebloomers (my term) are the same with different

modifiers.  Modifiers being soil, temperature, moisture, etc. . The ones I

ee

bloom in the summer (thus my term "summer rebloomers") simply appear to need

weaker triggers or modifiers.  I believe they are currently recognized

judges

handbook) as "Multiple Blooming Irises."  Neither group requires the specific

set of modifiers needed for fall cycle rebloom.



This is what I privately call the "loosy goosey" gene, assuming that rebloom

is the presence of a gene/genes rather than the absence of a gene as

speculated by some.  Either way, it is something that comes from within the

plant rather than being supplied by the microclimate.



This is my opinion based on what I've observed in my garden over a period of

twenty five years and reports I've read from other locations.  I've spent

uch

of that time trying to transfer some of the genetics from the "Sporadic"

roup

to the "Multiple Bloom Irises" (or summer) group.  It's my opinion that the

mixing of the two sets of genes are responsible for "Suky" & "Lunar

hitewash"

and others of a more progressive form.

<<The summer rebloomers and Whenever rebloomers seem to be a recessive gene

combined with at least one dominant gene.>>

 "Fall Cycle" rebloom does appear more easy to obtain, but it is more

restricted in potential.  In an average year, my fall cycle begins on Oct 1

and our first freeze is Oct 15. Hardly worth the massive effort!   "Summer

Rebloomers" contain the ability to fall bloom, also.  Seedlings from this

breeding have appeared to be "fall cycle rebloomers," but suddenly throw

summer stalks.  Why not breed for the greater possibilities?



The things I've grown as "Summer Rebloomers" have the ability to bloom from

spring season till fall freeze.  Additional bloom in June, July, August,

September, and October.  Most years they do not bloom in all of these months

due to heat and/or drought.  I've seen All Revved Up bloom each of these

months in the same summer.  I've identified five of mine as having this

ability.





In addition, Total Recall, Renown and others have been reported to bloom

earlier than the average cycle rebloomer. Most were reported in July but

apparently they can rebloom in various summer months.  Some of there rebloom

more easily and more often than the others.



 "Whenever" implies a sporadic component, much the same as the CA (sporadic)

rebloomers.  Yet, the "Summer" group are sporadic too, dependent on

odifiers.



How are we to tell the "Whenever Rebloomers"  from the "Summer Rebloomers?"



Betty W.

Zone 6 (KY)









-----Original Message-----

From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>

To: iris <iris@hort.net>

Sent: Sat, Mar 12, 2011 6:02 pm

Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: REB: Genetics of rebloom (was orange)





I didn't mention  the California rebloomers.

But to try and clarify.  There are four different types of rebloom genetics,

s far as I can tell.

The  summer rebloomers and Whenever rebloomers seem to be a recessive gene

ombined with at least one dominant gene.

Fall cyili and California rebloomers seem to be a dominant trait. Note I'm

not

aying a dominant gene. It is actually a combination of traits, but end result

s treat as a dominant.

The temperature trigger for bud set  is same for  FC, Summer and  Cal

ebloomers. Whenever rebloomers are different in this characteristic.

While I had  originally thought  that FC rebloomers were responding to a

aylight trigger, I'm reconsidering this  in light of new data. I suspect a

ime at maturity  with bud set to be the trigger.  Similar in some respects to

al rebloomers. Still need to figure out differences. But Cal rebloomers need

uch more time as a mature plant. Live and learn.

Plants have clocks and calenders, but not sure how they use them. But clocks

o stop working when plant is in drought or heat dormancy

All rebloomers  can carry a primed rhizome over winter. This is easier and

ore likely in warmer climates. So  they can then have out of season bloom,

ith carry over from increases on primed  rhizomes. The increases in these

ases don't get reset.

Normally a  plant will reset  vernalization condition  in the increases by

he blooming. But off season set coupled with  wintering over seems to

revents (or interfere with) this reset. Part of this could be that increase

re too large by time main fan blooms, so reset doean't work.

I'm beginning to suspect that  we could  bring rebloom from Ca rebloomers

arlier into season by selection.  But not likely able to increase plant

ardiness unless these are trialed and selected in  more adverse climates.



huck Chapman











---- Original Message ----

rom: Linda Mann <lmann@lock-net.com>

o: iris@hort.net

ent: Sat, Mar 12, 2011 8:59 am

ubject: [iris] Re: HYB: REB: Genetics of rebloom (was orange)



'm a little confused by this, Chuck.  I understand what you are saying about

eaf count, vigor etc, but this (combined with your earlier posts) sounds as

f you are saying there are two different sets of genetics controlling rebloom

summer & cycle, the former recessive, the latter dominant), but the

xpression of rebloom (phenotype) is the same?

So there could be June & August (usually too hot in July here for the lines

of

rises that thrive in my growing conditions) bloom from either, if growing

eason is long enough and temperatures suitable?  So in a very mild winter,

ollowed by warm spring, and cool summer, the cycles could also bloom in

ummer?  So change in daylength isn't a factor in cycle rebloom?

If that's what you are saying, I don't believe it.  But that's just my gut

eaction, no data.

I can see that would apply to "CA" rebloomers, & if that's also dominant,

hat's definitely something I'd enjoy having here.  Some lines not as

ensitive to heat inhibiting bloom as some of the really healthy growers here.

Or is that what you are thinking re: cycle rebloomers, that they are actually

he same as CA, but with different temperature limitations? More tolerant to

eat, less to erratic cold.

Thought provoking ;-)

<By selecting  the most vigourous growers and ones with lowest mature leaf

ount, you move  bloom time forward.

The weather conditions that set flower buds is the same for summer rebloom

and

all cyclic.

The weather conditions that inhibit  rebloom is the same for both.

So if a plant matures fast enought to get bud set before  too warm weather

ets in, you will get  early fall cylcic rebloom.  Same with summer

ebloomers.>

Linda Mann east TN USA zone 7

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