A.G. Hybrids (was: Re: male pollinators)



>From: "Ethan Jervis" <ejervis@mindspring.com>
>Reply-To: pumpkins@mallorn.com
>To: <pumpkins@mallorn.com>
>Subject: Re: male pollinators
>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 06:59:55 -0400
>
>Hello Andy. Let me take a shot at this, I think I understand the question. 
>Cross pollinating is done to improve the seed quality. It may not work all 
>the time but this is in my opinion the best way to go. I once read an 
>article by Chris Anderson (I think) that stated to much self pollinating is 
>no good. The article went on to say that if this was done more than 4-5 
>times the weight and genetics of the pumpkin and or seed's would take a 
>turn for the worse. When I cross pollinate I try to find seed's that are 
>good seed's and are as far apart genetically as possible. Don Langevin 
>believes that one of the reasons you get Siamese pumpkins and or vines is 
>because the genetics are to alike. I agree with both of these theories. But 
>then again, do whatever you want. If you have a hunch, GO FOR IT!!
>
>Ethan Jervis

As a lot of people probably know, I have been doing A LOT of research on 
this. I was one of the main people posting to the list last year about 
creating a true F1 hybrid A.G. Of course the result would be HUGE pumpkins 
with extreme disease resistance, and consistancy in seed, BUT drawbacks 
would be that seed from this fruit would be inferior, and that is a major 
drawback, unless one would be trying to sell the hybrid seed. The commercial 
value would be enourmous, but I am not interested in that kind of thing, 
plus it probably would still infringe on Howard's PVP, etc. I am just trying 
to find a way to get bigger, better pumpkins!
Partial hybridizing is what I am trying to do right now, as well as work 
towards a true F1 hybrid of two lines.
Selfing one line will reduce the vigor of each generation, BUT the idea is 
to grow out the traits you want in each selfed generation. Two unrelated 
lines which have traits that are complimentary to each other are best. Then 
grow as many seeds you can of each generation (a whole feild full if 
possible), and pick the ones with the biggest fruits as well as the traits 
you are going for in that line. Then grow those out (self each one), and 
repeat. If two different traits are "purified" in two lines, then a cross 
between those should combine them, plus add hybrid vigor.
In my opinion the best seeds to start with are the ones at the top of the 
all-time seed performance ranking chart, where we all know the 567.5 Mombert 
is #1 (I think it is still #1 this year). This means there is already a good 
consistancy of size and plant health in this line. (Fruit size means much 
more than just a plant's ability to produce large fruit, it also means that 
the strain MUST have good ddisease resistance and vigor, since it goes 
without saying that a plant has to be healthy to produce large fruit). I was 
trying to get a hybrid between the 567.5 Mombert line and the 946.5 Geerts 
line. If the best traits of both could be bred out and combined....uh, well 
that could be something special!
Anyway this would be simple selfing and crossing. But there is a more 
complex pattern that I have been trying to decode for the past year.
I know the pattern, but I am trying to figure out why it works.
If you check a lot of the pumpkins grown over 900 pounds, (especially the 
1000+ ones), they have a pattern of selfing, crossing and sometimes 
backcrossing. Let's look at the 1190 Checkon 99 UAW, the father (935 Lloyd 
97) was produced from a sibling cross, both of the siblings from a selfed 
plant. The mother (977 Anderson) was produced from a selfed 1006 Greer. 
These were crossed to produce the 815 Checkon 98 which produced the 1190 
Checkon 99. Also notice how each generation kept the higher wieght, meaning 
the plants retained the vigor and large fruit trait.
We see a similar pattern in the "official" world's largest pumpkin, the 1131 
Checkon 99, which was grown directly from the 935 Lloyd, which as I said was 
from a sibling cross of a selfed plant. (Not sure if it was the EXACT same 
plant, but at least they were from the same seed stock).
The previous year's world record, the 1092 Burke was also from the 935 
Lloyd. The 1090 Weir 97 was from the 490 Donkers, which was produced by a 
selfed 990 Bax, (which in turn was produced by the 511 Woodward 93, which 
was produced by 827 Holland 97, which was "open pollinated", and in most 
cases that means that at least 75%, in theory, is selfed.
1061 Zehr was from 975 Zehr, and both were from two selfed and crossed 
lines. The 946.5 Geerts which produced 3 fruit over 1000, (the only seed to 
do so), has a father produced by yet another selfed line.
1036.5 Kline from 968 Sproule, which, yes, is from a selfed 690 Sproule. 
This pattern is surprisingly consistant.
It would take a long time to get into the details of the backcrossing 
pattern, but basically it is the same as seling and crossing, but say, the 
mother was selfed, but the father might have the same father as the future 
mother (or her sister, anyway), but have a mother which is actually the 
great grandfather (or one of his siblings). I know it sounds confusing, but 
it is easier when you are looking at the charts! There is also a pattern 
which involves the mother being produced from a selfed plant, and the father 
being produced from the mother's sister (the aunt?) crossed with a totally 
separate line, then these are crossed.
Anyway there are definitely STRONG patterns here.

-Steve

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