Re: Why the 567.5??
Broc:
Sorry I'm a little late getting back to you on this one......I've been under the
weather with a head cold the last few days. This certainly is a great subject to talk
about, and I guess we have to discuss it because there are no true answers.....this
whole topic is purely speculative, but a little healthy debate should bring up some
interesting theories.
One thing you question is why does the progeny of a F1 cross seem to go back to one
parent or the other? My feeling is that we don't really know this to be the case
since we never had a true F1 hybrid out of AGS yet to see what it does. From what
I've seen of true to type hybrids in the rest of plant world is the offspring are
usually quite totally unique to either of the parents.
I would have to agree with you that some of these great seeds have merely been the
"best of the batch" and that is the reason why they were so sucessful. My theory
here is that we need to find these "magic" crosses, and then isolate and purify the
two lines that produced that "magic" cross. This way growers could have an endless
supply of great seeds that all had superb genetic potential.
I would also agree with you that the AGS are evolving already. If you ever have way
too much time on your hands you can do a little research and average the top 10 or 20
fruit grown in the world each year for the last 10 or so years. You would see that
the sport as a whole is making good progress. In a sense the coalition of growers
that combine to make this sport a whole are a breeding program in and of themselves.
And they will continue to make progress over the years, but they will never be able to
capitalize on the added strength and consistency of hybrid vigor!
The last ten years of the AGS history have certainly been interesting, but the next
ten years promises to be even more exciting!
Rick
Vickie Brock wrote:
> Thanks Rick for commenting!! always enjoy your comments. I really respect you
> efforts and projects and am 100% behind you. So don't ever give up!! Going to
> play the devils advocate here to stir up some thought. Here is the area I don't
> get . In the past when ever I have replanted seed from a F1 hybrid the offspring
> would go back looking like one parent or the other . It is very interesting that
> the 575 D.A.G is in the background of two of our most famous seed stars the
> Mombert, and the 827 holland. Heres the part I don't get if we have declared that
> every seed is unique in it gene code. isn't possible that the Mombert seed and
> Laemmle were the best of their batches. And going back to recreate would be
> somewhat tough.? Would perhaps a selfed Mombert that is huge be a better bet.???
> growing out those seeds and picking the best and selfing on and on (you would have
> to include selection) Momberts have been selfed and abandoned because there
> wasn't an instant bomber. So its up to you Rick to go the distance. I am too
> much of a whimp and want instants sucess to take on such an endeaver. Another
> aspect that I think about is if one is to believe that DAgs are evolving those
> benefits wouldn't be found going back. Yet most plant bioligists suggest that
> you go back to the sucessful parents. So if this is true perhaps we are wrong
> with some of our assumptions......maybe the seed isn't evolving at all......but
> the grower , his techniques and selection. .................brock
>
> Richard Noffke wrote:
>
> > I've got a theory for you on this one! Over the last little while a good deal
> > of talk has taken place about hybrid vigor among AG's. Now I realize that
> > there are many different and equally valid opinions on this matter, but its my
> > theory that the M567 is a perfect example of what a true to type F1 hybrid
> > cross can do for the pumpkin world. Although its not a perfect case, it does
> > afford and example of two very unrelated lines that were crossed and
> > consistently produced good genetic potential. The Laemmle 609 is a good
> > example of an inbred line that a plant breeder might maintain. Helmut Laemmle
> > got some seed from an unknown source in the early 80's. Each year he grew a
> > few plants and kept seeds from the best one, and so on untill 89'.
> >
> > It just so happened that this cross was the lucky cross, and there was some
> > degree of hybrid vigor. And yes there are people working on "recreating" this
> > cross and other super-productive crosses like it.
> >
> > Despite the fact that there are as many different theories about pumpkin
> > genetics as there are growers in the world, the day will come when every grower
> > can plant a seed every year that is as good as or better than the M567!
> >
> > Rick - Wisconsin
> >
> > Vickie Brock wrote:
> >
> > > Anyone speculate why the 567.5 mombert was soooo sucessful and others
> > > aren't. I heard the "only good growers planted it theory " sure..... there
> > > must be more hunches . .......was the seed background (which I know is a
> > > dead end) closer to purity than seeds are today. Was it the pure lines of
> > > the Dill 493 and 355? Was the Laemmle a selfed pumpkin. Can someone
> > > recreate it.??
> > >
> > > Does anyone think that some seeds do better strictly in the female role and
> > > vice versa with the some doing better on the male
> > > side??......................MB
> > >
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