Re: NUMBERS IN HOSTA NAMES
- Subject: Re: NUMBERS IN HOSTA NAMES
- From: C* <c*@bridgewoodgardens.com>
- Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:32:58 -0400
Your're probably right Bill. Like I said, I was just asking a
question, not looking for an argument. I don't really care what anyone
else does. I guess I could argue with you about whether 'Sergeant Pepper'
is a sport or a seedling, or the line between unstable and "fairly
stable", but I frankly don't see what that has to do with anything. I
just stated my opinion, and despite all the wisdom of your arguments, my
opinion hasn't changed a bit. You've analyzed things about as far (I
hope) as they can be analyzed but I just don't see what difference it
makes.
There is nothing wrong with selling streaked forms of 'Little Town Flirt'
or 'Lovely Rita' if someone wants to buy them. For the right price you
can buy just about anything I have except my wife, my dog, and my
tractor. There are times when I would entertain offers on one or two of
those, but not my tractor. I'll sell every streaked plant I have if
someone makes me an offer I can't refuse. There is a difference, in my
mind at least, in selling something somebody wants, and offering
something for sale. In my opinion, the streaked forms of those two
plants have no value. I just don't see why anyone needs them. If you
want them, I'll sell them to you, and probably overcharge you for them,
but if I offer them for sale it implies that I think they are worth
selling, and I don't.
If someone gets hold of them and wants to put a name on them and sell
them, there's not much I can do about it. I don't think that the fact
that there might be some dirtbag out there that would might introduce a
plant of mine without my permission is any justification for me to do it
just to beat them to the punch.
There are streaked plants that are worth introducing, and many more that
are not. Just my opinion, and it's pretty obvious that it isn't shared
by everyone. It is comforting to know though, that if I'm ever strapped
for cash I can whip up a couple million bucks worth of streaked seedlings
real quick. Actually, I could probably make more than that if I wanted,
but I'm not a greedy man.
Chick
Bill Meyer wrote:
Well Chick,
To answer your question about people thinking streaked plants are a
rarity, I doubt it. Bill Nash has been peddling and giving away his 'Let's
Streak' seed everywhere for years so everyone that had a few dollars could
raise some streaked seedlings. Older streaked plants like 'Iron Gate
Supreme' and 'Swoosh' don't fetch more than $15 or so these days too. It's
been that way for years. Generally newer streaked varieties go for a higher
price because of scarcity. Most aren't TCed so they're OS to begin with (see
your website for the difference in price between OS and TC of the same
plant) and not all divisions of a streaked plant are suitable for sale if
you want a happy customer. As for the TC ones, only a fairly small
percentage of a streaked plant's TC's show good streaking, often less than
half. This make the price higher for the good ones. That explains why people
charge more for them. If people are willing to pay that amount, it might be
that they want them for breeding, for collector value (including trading),
or maybe they just like the way they look. If no one was willing to pay the
higher prices, then the prices would either go down or no one would sell
them.
First item - Some people are of the opinion that seedlings which are
chimeras of any type from the first leaf are still sports - just ones that
happened very early in the plant's life. I agree with them unless evidence
someday proves otherwise. That makes it a sport even though the normal
solid-color plant ceased to exist.
Second item - You said "0017 is one of my best breeders but has not
stabilized yet" which I take to mean as it remaining streaked and not
forming any margin or edge types. This would make it a plant in which the
streaking is fairly stable, say at least as good as 'Fascination'. A very
unstable streaked plant would be 'Flamboyant' which has a very strong
tendency to form a margin and give up being streaked. "Unstable" and
"streaked" do not mean the same thing.
Third item - If you don't give proper names to your plants someday
someone else probably will if they are getting around and stay popular. This
has happened before and will again. Calling a plant xxxxxxx Streaked is not
giving it a name as far as registration is concerned. If you change your
mind and want to register it, or die and someone else wants to register it,
it will need a real name. Why put plants out without giving them real and
legal names? The restrictions aren't that bad. It's actually fairly
difficult to find a name that wouldn't be allowed.
BTW, I think a lot of people would be interested in a streaked
'Little Town Flirt' or a streaked 'Lovely Rita'. What would be wrong with
selling them if people wanted them? If the stable forms are great plants,
what's wrong with the streaked forms, especially if they're fertile? It
doesn't make any sense to me not to sell the streaked form of a plant that
is good enough to name, except maybe if it is too unstable to stay streaked
for long or it's infertile. People are smart. They'll decide for themselves
if they want a plant, so if you like the stable form, what's so unlikeable
about the streaked form?
.......Bill Meyer
As I said, I really don't care if anyone agrees, it's just what I think
and its why I haven't introduced a single streaked plant out of the
thousands and thousands I have grown. You can introduce as many as you
like. I happen to be a great fan of 'Sea Prize' and have no problem with
it being in the trade because I think it is a great breeder. I may name
and introduce some of my favorite breeders if I have a surplus and I may
give them a name of their own if I feel like it. I'm not making any
rules here, just stating an opinion.
It seems that you are always searching for some ulterior motive in my
pronouncements. I'm not jumping through hoops to support anything. I
just explained the way I handle these plants.
I'm not sure I am making a distinction between streaked and unstreaked
plants. It just seems to me that a plant shouldn't be introduced just
because it's streaked any more than a seedling should be introduced just
because it's blue, or variegated for that matter. I'm not a great fan of
introducing all these streaked plants because it seems to me that nobody
would be paying these rather unusual prices for ordinary streaked plants
if they were familiar with how common it is, and I wonder if these plants
would be introduced if they brought what they were worth. If these plants
were selling for ten or fifteen bucks, I wouldn't have a problem with
it. And I'm not talking about every streaked plant that has a name. Some
are better than others, some, to me at least, don't show me a thing. I
didn't say the practice should be banned, I just said I'm not a big fan
of it. I think that's ok for me to have an opinion without looking for
ulterior motives. Far be it from me to make rules.
You jump to a few conclusions below. First of all, I do occasionally get
stable, margined or centered seedlings, and 'Sergeant Pepper' is a
seedling. It did not come from a streaked plant, and is not a sport of
anything. It was one of the first seedlings I ever selected, and at the
time I was not breeding with streakers. I have others that germinated
with margins or centers, but they have not been introduced. Obviously
it's not as common as streaking, but it happens.
Second, 0017 is not "pretty stable", whatever that means, I never said
it was. I don't know why we wouldn't be having this conversation if it
didn't behave just like all the other streaked plants, that's the point.
I'm not saying unstable streaked plants shouldn't be introduced.
Third, I have no intention of registering 'Graceland Memories' or
'Graceland Streaked' or a streaked 'Graceland' of any other name. So I
pretty much can call it anything I want.
Chick
Bill Meyer wrote:
Hi Chick,
The problem I have with that thinking is that you seem to see
streaked
plants as some different kind of animal, rather than just another type
of
hosta like the "stable" types. A different type altogether that
apparently
has no merits of its own. Why do you use the word "stable" as if it is a
black-and-white thing? Stability is relative in hostas, and there are
probably no hostas that are 100% stable. 'Sergeant Pepper' is a sport of
either a gold or a light green seedling. I don't know if you ever saw or
still have the solid-color plant it sported from, but seedlings don't
normally appear with ready-made margins. Was the solid-color "parent"
unstable? Obviously, since it sported to a "stable" form it must have
been.
We haven't made any efforts really to breed for stability in
streaked
plants. We just assumed that since the first ones that were named were
fairly unstable (but not so unstable that they have disappeared after
20-30
years) that all the others would be equally unstable. Your experience
with
0017 points out that some can be pretty stable as a streaked form or we
wouldn't be having this discussion. I have some streaked plants too that
have not come close to yielding a "stable" form after 10 years or more.
They
might some day, but then so might a lot of solid-color ones sport to an
edge
or even a streaked form. I can't say I know which might happen first.
Some
of the margin or center forms from streaked plants can also be very hard
to
stabilize so they don't keep reverting to streaked forms. In the
'Fortunei
Hyacinthina' fields at Walters Gardens, plain old green 'Hyacinthina'
sports
like crazy with sports in at least one plant out of ten. That's more
than
some streaked forms manage. Dan can back me up on that since he was
there
too. Does that make FH a stable form or an unstable form?
In my opinion, streaked forms are just another pattern, but one
which
has the added bonus of yielding streaked seedlings. I don't see any
reason
why they should be treated differently when it comes to naming them.
Some,
like 'Fascination', can make fairly stable garden plants for those who
just
like their looks. In the future, I think we'll see more streaked plants
that
are like 'Korean Snow' and stay streaked very well. We haven't really
started breeding with that as a goal yet.
I think you are just jumping through hoops trying to avoid naming
them to support the concept that they are significantly different from
other
hostas in some way. You could just as easily use real names rather than
xxxxxxxxxxxx Streaked to name your streaked introductions. Instead of
'Graceland Streaked', which is not a legal name for registration
purposes,
you could call it 'Graceland Memories' or some such. Kevin Vaughn put
out
'Delta Dawn' some time ago but when Q and Z wanted to sell the streaked
form, they asked him to name it and he called it 'Delta Force', thus
keeping
the connection. If you just name things this- or that- Streaked, you'll
have
to rename them later if you want to register them. It works the same way
in
reversed form too - If you like and name a streaked plant like 'Dorothy
Benedict', you can't name a sport 'Dorothy Benedict Stable' and register
it
that way.
That's why we decided not to put things like 'Graceland Streaked'
in
the HostaLibrary. They will only be renamed later so they can be
registered,
and the listing in the Library would have to be changed.
........Bill Meyer
Ah, the inevitable challenge from Mr Meyer. Don't you have anything
to
do?
I'm trying to get my fall list out now, so I'm afraid I don't have too
much time to argue with you on this one.
Yes, 'Bridgewood 0017' is a name. I guess you got me on that one.
I put a number on a streaked plant once I decide it's worth keeping so
I
can keep track of it's seedlings. I don't like to name them because
they
are unstable and will eventually change to a stable plant. Actually
the
plant is just labeled 0017, but if I do sell or give it to anyone, I
don't think that's sufficient and would attach "Bridgewood". And I
also
don't care to debate whether 0017 is a number or a name. The reason I
asked the question is that 0017 is one of my best breeders but has not
stabilized yet and I don't want to give it a "real" name until it
does.
It's just my preference, but I would prefer to name the stable plant
and
refer to the streaked form as 'Stable Plant Streaked' or some such
thing. That way, there is a connection between the streaked and
stable
plant. '9944' stabilized and the margined form is now 'Graceland',
'9944'
never left my nursery and it became 'Graceland Streaked' and anyone
can
probably recognize the relationship. If you disagree, which I'm sure
you
do, that's fine.
I'm amazed by the prices people are paying for streaked plants that
don't
look like anything special to me, and I wonder if it's because they've
been led to believe that streaking is unusual. If I get around to
planting all the seeds I take this year, I can produce literally
thousands of streaked plants, but IMHO, unless they prove to be good
breeders or stabilize to something interesting, which most of them
don't,
I don't see where the value comes from. I hate to imply that I'm
opposed
to separating a sucker from his/her money, but for some reason this
trend
just bugs me.
And so that's the reason I'm not a big fan of "naming" so many
streakers.
Maybe I should just shut up and start selling them too. I can use the
money as much as anyone.
And actually, I don't have the same standards for stable plants. I've
said many times before that I think don't think there's anything wrong
with introducing plants that are not fantastic new breakthroughs in
the
world of hostas, as long as the plant is described as honestly as
possible. And before you write a 3 page tome disputing my logic,
remember
I said I don't really care. I know there are those who feel there are
too many hostas, I just don't agree.
As for 'Admiral Halsey', I agree with your implication that it
shouldn't
have been introduced and haven't sold it for years. Surprisingly
though,
I still get calls from people in Minnesota and thereabouts asking if
they
can buy it because they saw it in someone's garden up there.
Apparently
the creamy gold margin I saw when I named the plant is dependent on
temperature, and some people up there like the plant. In most years
it's
just 'Patriot' around here. So sue me. By the way, my catalog
description of 'Admiral Halsey', when I did sell it, indicated that
the
color was much more apparent in cooler areas and ended with the
following: "I don't know if the world needs another 'Patriot' variant,
and I had planned to keep this one to myself, but people who have seen
it
at the nursery have asked for it."
Chick
Bill Meyer wrote:
So Chick,
I would assume that you are also not a big fan of naming
margin,
center, or solid-color plants if they were not truly unusual and
outstanding
for some reason too. Except maybe 'Admiral Halsey'. :-) The
difference
for
streaked plants apparently is that must also give good offspring.
It's
not
enough that they could be very attractive, have very stable
streaking,
be
good growers, have a unique look, etc. Why do they have to meet
standards
higher than other types? Just wondering what the difference is in
your
eyes.
Also, I'm not sure why you would think 'Bridgewood 0017' would
not
be a
name. If it isn't a name, what is it?
.......Bill Meyer
Thanks Kevin,
I have to admit that rules irritate me, but in this case I asked
for
it
so I have only myself to blame.
The reason I'm asking is that I am not a big fan of naming, nor or
registering, streaked plants unless they are truly unusual and
outstanding for some reason. Obviously there are many who
disagree
because I see all kinds of plants being named that don't look any
different than the hundreds of streaked plants I produce every
year -
thousands if you count the ones I throw out. I can't see any
reason to
introduce a streaked plant unless it's an outstanding breeder, and
that
doesn't mean just any streaked plant that will produce additional
ordinary streaked plants.
Anyway, I digress (does it seem that there's always a rant
attached to
my questions?). I do have some streaked plants that I consider
outstanding breeders and I have considered offering them for sale
in
the
future. Generally I number the seedlings I use for breeding and
don't
give them a name unless they stabilize into something I find
interesting. I think I was once told that I could not name a
plant
'Bridgewood 0017 ' legally because it didn't conform to the rules.
It
would seem to me that if 'Apolo 13' is legal, then 'Bridgewood
0017'
would be too. Yes?
Chick
Giboshiman@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 8/28/2004 2:36:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
chick@bridgewoodgardens.com writes:
Actually, I'm not bored. Does it say anywhere in there whether
digits
are allowed in hosta names? That's really all I was wondering
about.
Chick
Chick I know it scares you when I send anything that relates to
rules but
in
this case I think you will like the answer I am giving you to
your
question!
The relevant sections ("articles") of the 2004 version of the
code
follow:
19.15 For a cultivar name to be established on or after 1
January
1996,
its
epithet must
consist of no more than 30 characters (Roman letters, numbers,
and
permitted
punctuation marks or symbols) overall, excluding spaces and the
demarcating
marks.
Ex. 24. After 1 January 1996 a name with the cultivar epithet
"Madame
la
Comtesse Oswald de Kerchove de Denterghem" could not be
established.
19.16. A cultivar name may not be established if on or after 1
January
2004
its epithet
consists solely of a single letter or solely of Arabic or Roman
numerals.
Ex. 25. Names containing the epithets "K", "400", and "MMIV"
cannot be
established, but the epithets "Hundred", "10 Downing Street",
"451
Ocean
Boulevard", "77 Sunset Strip", "Apollo 13", "Catch 22", "Henry
VIII",
"Pope Leo X",
"4th July", and "Happy 21st Birthday" could be established.
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