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Re: copyright?? on library photos

Chick wrote:
Good discussion!

RE:>>Everything of value that's given away on the web is given away for a reason, and
the reason is not the betterment of mankind.

#1.  You've missed the paradigm shift, but there is still time to catch up.  Someday, all of the best software will be available for free, or for only the cost for distributing it.  This is nearly the case for all commodity products.  80% of the cost is for distribution.  Go to your grocery store and verify this through observing every product on the shelf.  Even pharmaceuticals eventually go through this pricing life cycle.  Cars would too, if we weren't so vain and needed to have a different model every year.  Vain creatures that we are...

RE:>>I give you the right to look at my pictures for free without buying anything from me.  I give you the right to read anything on my site without buying plants from me.

#2. Any thing you don't want people to see, you would password protect, right?  Well, copyrighting a photo is just like password protecting a directory.  It's just good common sense.

RE:>>But I get to decide what of mine I want to give away, not you.

I think you would find that neither you nor I would get to decide.  That is a matter of law, not a matter of what is "mine".  Private property law in this country is quite complex.  And if you are really intent on protecting your personal, private property, you will need to protect it.

BTW, while we're busy being so protective of what is "mine", maybe we should spend a little time talking about the land that you're house is sitting on.  In lots of ways, the American Indian's were much more respectful of the earth than we are, with all of our private property and civilized ways.  Private property laws can also work against man and on the internet is one of those areas where that is true.  Ever "borrowed" logic from someone else's HTML source code?  Even though it was "copyrighted"?

Much better to share when you can.  BTW, you are welcome to all photos that I have taken that are posted at my website.  Every one is.  Even the graphical ones, (unless they are copyrighted).  My only caveat is that people should ask first or risk getting their legs broken.  (It's true... that's what is under my "legal notice".  I personally don't know a single lawyer that has ever made me any money.  While I am aware of many laws, I realize how very useless they can be.  Costs too much to have them enforced).  Fortunately, I'm not a very violent person, so there is little chance any snapping of the legs would occur. But, "you buys your ticket and you takes your chances". Tee Hee Hee...

RE:>>Where's my stuff Andrew?  I'm getting tired of wondering what you're going to send me.  I
like beer a lot, maybe even more than hostas.  Got any beer?

Just ask and it's yours!  I would be flattered!

Your stuff, once again, is on my web site.  Please give me credit if you use it.  As for the beer, come on over!   I only stock dark beers, but for a guy like you, I could be talked into making a trip to the big coolers down the street... I'd even try to find a nice bottle of Mississippi Mud, my all time favorite brew.

Free enterprise is great.  Sharing and even getting out of "self" is even better.  I wish I could do it more often.  Unfortunately, I have to agree that it's money and sex that make the world go round, not necessarily in that order.

Andrew Lietzow
#1 Plantsman at http://hostahaven.com
1250 41st St
Des Moines, IA 50311-2516


I saw your hostas on the web and I would like to have them.  Please send them to me.  I
do not want to pay for them.

I'm sure that many of you are getting tired of this conversation, but I find it
facinating, so I just can't help myself.

Andrew, when you get some pictures and put them on the web, you can give them to anyone
you want, because they are your pictures.  And if it means you sell more hostas, it will
be a very smart thing to do.  I know hosta pix promote hostas, that's why I put them on
my website, because I sell hostas.  Frankly, it is not my objective to help you sell
hostas.  I offer this as a challenge to you.  Look around and find something you paid and
worked hard for and send it to me. Simple as that.  Just send me something of yours
because I want it.  And not something crappy either.  I want something of value and I
don't want to pay for it.

Your theory of a paradigm shift is nonsense.  People give away things on the web because
they have decided that it is an intrigral part of their business plan, the purpose of
which is to make money. They don't give anything away because you are somehow entitled to
it.   I grant you that there are a few people who actually give away things with no
thought of getting something in return.  Typically, these people kick themselves in the
ass when they discover how valuable thier contribution was.  And I will admit that there
are one or two absolutely selfless people in the world, but I am not one of them.  The
guy who invented Napster is so generous that he's willing to give the music companies a
billion dollars to let him continue giving his product away for the good of mankind.  You
cannot possibly be that naive.

Your examples of all the wonderful free stuff on the web are interesting but mean
nothing.  The stuff is free because the owners decided to give it away, not because you
have any right to it, and they decided to do that because they felt it was the best way
to make money.  Microsoft gives away Explorer, but they don't give away Frontpage, and if
they thought they would make more money if they stopped giving Explorer away, or by
making Frontpage free, guess what they would do.  My bank gives away pens with their name
on them, but I can't go to their supply cabinet and take whatever I need.  Everything of
value that's given away on the web is given away for a reason, and the reason is not the
betterment of mankind.  I give you the right to look at my pictures for free without
buying anything from me.  I give you the right to read anything on my site without buying
plants from me.  But I get to decide what of mine I want to give away, not you.  Call
your free software suppliers and tell them you want the rest of the stuff for free too.
Call Microsoft and ask them for a free copy of Frontpage.  Just explain that we want the
internet to be free.

If I felt that I would make more money from my pictures by letting my competitors use
them for free, I would probably do it.  I hope this doesn't sound like all I care about
is money, but this is what I do for a living.  Very few of you go to work for the fun of
it.  I expect to be paid for what I do just like every other working stiff in the
country.   If Ran, one of my competitors, wants to use my pictures for free, I would
probably let him because he's a nice guy.  But it should be my decision to be generous
with what's mine, not Ran's or your's or anyone else's.  They are my pictures.  And there
is no way you can justify taking what's mine without asking, any more than I can come to
your house and help myself to whatever I want.  And by the way, what are you sending me?
Where's my stuff?

Taking my pictures has nothing to do with keeping the web free.  And if everything on the
web was really free, there wouldn't be a web. The real short of it is that nobody has the
right to take something of mine just because they want it.

Where's my stuff Andrew?  I'm getting tired of wondering what you're going to send me.  I
like beer a lot, maybe even more than hostas.  Got any beer?


andrewl wrote

> Chick,
> The short of it... Hosta pix promote Hostas.  Make your money selling Hostas but give
> the pictures away and don't worry about somebody making a sale from one of your
> pictures; UNLESS you are a pro photographer. Then, sell your pictures on a CD-Rom,
> with a license to use but all have nice bold letters explaining the copyright so when
> people user your pics, you get free advertising!
> The long of it......Warning:  Paradigm shift in progress.  When the web was but an
> infant, people yearned to increase communications by implementing standards that were
> INTERNATIONAL.  They began to write programs that contained source code, and they
> began to distribute this code freely all over the world.  Major players emerged in
> this Internet age and they make many resources available at no charge to the user.
> Their services or books may be expensive, but the base software system itself is
> free.  If one can figure out how to download it, you'll see powerful results without
> shelling out one nickel.
> Each of us receives MAJOR benefits from this software revolution every day we're on
> the net.  Open source software is what is helping to change the way the world
> computes and it is indeed a paradigm shift on how software is developed and
> distributed.
> For example, about 60% of the world's web servers run on Apache software
> (http://www.apache.org/).  It's freely distributed.  I don't know how many people use
> Perl (http://www.perl.org/) or Linux (http://www.linux.org/info/index.html) but some
> estimate it is at least 16,000,000.
> And sendmail? (http://www.sendmail.org/)
> A 1998 survey of SMTP servers (that means mail servers) conducted by Dr. Daniel
> Bernstein at the University of Chicago revealed that 76 percent run sendmail-80
> percent when OEM and VAR copies are included. The most widely deployed alternatives
> run on 2 percent or fewer of servers worldwide.
> These are GREAT software packages that are FREE for the user.
> My 2 cents worth is "Sell the Hostas, but give away the pictures".  And if you are a
> professional photographer, you'll probably not be posting your best pics on the net
> without a copyright prominently displayed on it in the first place.
> Keeping the net free is keeping the net simple and that helps EVERYONE without regard
> to race, creed, national origin, or socioeconomic status, etc.  It really is for the
> good of all users... But if you want to copyright it, make sure the copyright notice
> is prominent.
> Now the distribution costs, well that's another thing.  It takes time and effort to
> send it all over the planet and to keep upgrading it all the time.  Maybe you should
> only post the blurred pictures... the ones with the bugs in them... and offer to sell
> them a clear photo if they like what they see.
> Oh, I don't know.  But I do believe digital images sell Hostas... so, thanks to
> everyone who posts pictures on the Internet!  Especially in the winter time!
> Andrew L.
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