Re: Re: HIST: TB: Pink Opal- use of species designation

I'm collecting pallida series plants to do genetic studies and would 
not consider, even for  second using something like Pink Opal and I 
don't know of any biologist studing dashounds to find out about wolves.
Saying "derived from"or  some such would make the calarification and 
prevent confusion.  When we call a garden derived plant from selected 
crossing and/or a plant without proven species parentage  as a species 
we need to be clear, otherwise someone not knowing how to interpret 
this could interpret it incorectly. In addition, with pallida , there 
is a revision of species clasification being undertaken by several 
Croatian botanists (indeginous area of pallida series) and many of what 
we call pallida may be illyrica or peudopallida .

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Pickett <waltseed2@yahoo.com>
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:51:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re:  HIST: TB: Pink Opal- use of species 
designation

   I'm Ok with calling long haired dashunds wolves, but we need to be 
aware they are not typical wolves. They have been bred seperately about 
2,000 generations. But even so, their DNA is indeed little changed.
  Pink Opal is not a typical I. pallida, but close to average I. 
pallida. A few color modifiers, and few shpe modifiers, but the DNA is 
still basicly I. pallida. Of course, there may have been an outcross a 
few generations back, we con't know. Same with iris found in the wild.
  There is no hard and fast way to designate when something stops being 
a given species, short of a known outcross. Selection and mutation soes 
eventually make a species divide. But there generally isn't a given 
generation where a taxonomist can point to and say "That is when the 
species seperated." Exceptions include a polyploiy event, a chromosome 
inversion or transolation and such. But such can only be pointed to in 
the light of later history. Even then, most of the time we still can't 
see such a point.
 Walter

irischapman@netscape.net wrote:
  While this may have all and only pallida in its ancesry I have 
problems
calling it a pallida. It was hyridized in the garden, not collected in
wild and I beilive , several generations from the wild. As soon as
plants are selected for certain characteristics we soon see things that
are different then nature.
If we used this sort of deignation then we should be calling long
haired dashunds and indeed all breeds of dogs , wolves, as their
genetics is 100% from wolves. And to study wolf behavior /genetics we
should use these domestic "Wolves"in our studies, no need to send
biologists into the wild, save a lot of money on resesrch that way.

Chuck Chapman

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