Re: :HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings)
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: :HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings)
  • From: &* G* C* <j*@cox.net>
  • Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:46:03 -0400
Betty writes:
"For an Edith Wolford cross to be a success for me it would have to be as is, 
but healthy here in KY.  It has height, color, branching (most of the time)
and all other qualities I like! Unfortunately, it doesn't live here. Except in my huge pot, of course. It lives, but still doesn't bloom every year. It is still in some of my seedlings. It passes on the bitone effect, height and 
good branching in plants that live.  Most seedlings also have triple
terminals.  Just  because an iris bombs here doesn't mean it's children will
do the same.

Many of the Romantic Evening children appeal to me more than RE, but who can
buy all 93 of them?  (I also have children of RE, but it is long gone)"
We've discussed the theme of weak-growing irises many times before, but for the benefit of our newer members, I'll mention that I have never been able to keep Edith Wolford alive long enough here to make a cross, but its progeny, Jurassic Park, grows well and has given me nice seedlings. Similarly, Best Bet has never lasted more than 2 years here, but has given me some introducers. Finally, Romantic Evening just struggles along here, but has given me some of my best introductions and breeders. So, as Betty says, there's more to consider than just how well an introduced plant grows in a particular place. -- Griff 

Griffin's Den
http://www.pilmore.com/griffinsden/default.html
Zone 7 along the tidal Potomac near Mount Vernon, in Virginia
----- Original Message ----- From: <autmirislvr@aol.com> 
To: <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings)



Points of discussion:
Hybidizers DO share both plants and pollen long before a new breakthrough hits 
the market.  That is how children of said "wonder" hit the market so soon.
Some of the plants used in breeding are never introduced--(sibling of blah, 
blah)
Length of bloom season can be achieved in several ways. Substance is great. It's also possible to have stalks, within a clump, that initiate one at a time throughout the season, and the blooms on the stalk may also open one or two blooms at a time. It's possible for a mature iris clump to have many days, or possibly many weeks of bloom. A good show bench iris may not be a good garden 
iris based on the timing of individual blooms.

Of course, rebloom is another method of extending bloom season!  One of my
favorites, but I'll take them all.
Branching? Is this garden branching or show bench branching? A show branch 
must only shine on one day, whereas the garden variety must hold it's own
against others for a much longer time period. This is especially true of tall 
bearded irises.
I find myself looking for show bench branching on all of my seedlings although I know that my rebloomers will rarely make a show bench based on the timing of most iris shows. I'd be better off looking for branching that shows well in 
the garden, but old habits are hard to break.
During my formative years as an iris hybridizer, I grew a beautiful Blue(ish) iris that was tall with a consistent branching problem. It always grew the middle branch at a quarter turn on the stalk rather than opposite sides of the 
branch!  It was a gorgeous bloom but most felt it should never have been
introduced, based on the branching deficiency.  Yet, this iris would get a
blue ribbon on the bench because it grew as introduced.

Paul when you speak of proportion are you refering to both stalk and bloom
proportion and/or balance?

Maybe the main difference of opinions lies in bloom preference?  Open
standards or domed standards? Heavy haft marks or none at all? Pastel colors or heavily saturated dark colors? Ruffles, lace or tailored edges? Plicatas, 
selfs, bitones, etc.?  I love variegatas!
If I buy an iris that is touted as an improvement and it dies for me within 2 
years, is it truly an improvement?  Or should it be considered inferior?

Which irises bred from Edith Wolford were truly an improvement over EW?
Several may have been considered a success by their breeder/creator, depending on their goals! Use the same criteria with any of the other irises heavily 
used in breeding.
For an Edith Wolford cross to be a success for me it would have to be as is, but healthy here in KY. It has height, color, branching (most of the time) and all other qualities I like! Unfortunately, it doesn't live here. Except in my huge pot, of course. It lives, but still doesn't bloom every year. It is still in some of my seedlings. It passes on the bitone effect, height and 
good branching in plants that live.  Most seedlings also have triple
terminals. Just because an iris bombs here doesn't mean it's children will 
do the same.
Many of the Romantic Evening children appeal to me more than RE, but who can 
buy all 93 of them?  (I also have children of RE, but it is long gone)
There are many irises introduced each year that don't appeal to me, yet, I'm sure most furthered some goal of the hybridizer. It's quite possible that I'd 
say "ugh" to your (generic your) favorite iris, but that doesn't make them
inferior.
How about that beautiful pink iris that looks just like two dozen (hundred) other beautiful pink irises? Was it folly to introduce it? Or did it exhibit 
something special or new to the hybridizer?

Just saying that much of what we see is simply "the eye of the beholder."
This is one of the reasons for National Display Gardens and iris photos!


Betty Wilkerson . . . thanks for your time.
KY Zone 6






---Original Message-----
From: Paul Archer <pharcher@mindspring.com>
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Sun, Jun 20, 2010 12:44 pm
Subject: Re: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings)
I personally select for plants with the following (since I breed TB's, MTB's, 
ntermediates and Arilbreds)...
First off, each cross has a particular goal for a flower characteristic. If a 
lower meets that goal or something unique shows up then the following is
valuated...
-Flowers that have good bloom substance (more then two days of life). I would 
lways like 3 days but that is
slim pickin's.
Upright foliage
Disease resistance (as well as blue-green foliage)
Stalks that do not need staking
Good branching (not as easy as it might seem)
At least two increases to bloom size
Proper proportion (regardless of class).
Bud count of at least 8 with a goal of triple sockets and/or lower branches 
Rebloom if possible
irst year seedlings are evaluated for color and general growth. The second ear is make it or break it unless foul weather has played a role in general. f any one or two of those qualities is missing in a seedlng (but the flower 
ust be exceptional) it is selected as breeding stock.  Any more than two
faults
s usually tossed. I do have one plant that is an exception to that rule and I 
ill never, ever distribute it.  Once I get what I want from it it will get
ossed.
Arilbreds are something else altogether and have their own set of issues, but 
imilarly judged.

-----Original Message-----
From: autmirislvr@aol.com
Sent: Jun 20, 2010 12:14 PM
To: iris@hort.net
Subject: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings)

This is a side issue to the Limbo Seedling thread.

So many things to consider.

<<second class seedlings>>

An improvement might be a taller specimen, more branches, longer bloom
season,
deeper colors, etc..What are your goals and how do they mesh with what the
rest of us like?
Would some of the hybridizers on this list please give us some idea of what they consider an advancement? What are your goals? What are you trying to improve in the irises you breed? Specifically, what would it take to be a 
"first class" seedling in your garden?

Each hybridizer has their own goals.  To an extent, an advancement or
"better"
iris is in the eye of the beholder.

Feed Back, please!

Betty Wilkerson . . . extremely fussy about colors and patterns.
Bridge In Time Irises
KY Zone 6


-----Original Message-----
From: Dana Brown <ddbro@sbcglobal.net>
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Sun, Jun 20, 2010 8:56 am
Subject: RE: [iris] Re: Limbo Seedlings


Paul,
  Just imagine how much worse it would be if all the seconds and culls
ere floating around out there as well.  If your "limbo" seedlings are
etter than so many of the current intros, then kudos to you for being a
iscerning hybridizer/irisarian!!  Why would you want to lower your
tandards at this point?
  As far as all the tracking and record keeping....well, given the
umber of misnamed or no name iris already out there I guess we already know 
hat not everyone keeps good records.
  Bottom line for me as a hybridizer, no, I don't want to send my
econd class seedlings out in public where they might get released into
eneral population.
Dana
Dana D. Brown
IS, ASI, MIS, RIS, SPIS, TBIS
alevil Iris Gardens & Kennels
ww.malevil-iris.com
ubbock, TX  79403
one 7 USDA, Zone 10 Sunset
dbro@sbcglobal.net
Home of:
errimac's Amarula CGC TDI
H. Merrimac the Agean CD, RA, CGC, TDI

----Original Message-----
rom: owner-iris@hort.net [o*@hort.net] On Behalf Of Paul
rcher
ent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 6:33 PM
o: Iris chat forum
ubject: [iris] Re: Limbo Seedlings
I agree with that as well.  However, considering the sheer amount of
egistered plants I have paid good money for and turned out to be complete
rap for various reasons and most of my "limbo" seedlings surpass the ones I ought, and by that standard maybe I should be Registering a whole lot more. 
lso some Registered plants make very poor parents once I get seeds from
hem, yet they were Registered by the Hybridizer anyway.  The assumption
hat a Registered plant is a worthy parent is mute. But sorry to burst your 
ubble but the danger of releasing poor plant has already been surpassed
umerous times and is now and endemic problem, yet may great cultivars are
oming from these very plants through selection efforts.  The difference is
he Hybridizer standard of which mine is very high.
It could also be said that those "limbo" seedlings that would be released
nto this proposed program would need to be kept track of by the purchaser
nd Hybridizer and not released as a cultivar for the sheer sake of
ropagation purposes unless it has been evaluated by numerous people,
eedback reported on, and the decision made by the Hybridizer to remove it
rom "limbo" list and actually Registered.  Yes, that takes some work, but
hat prevents the seedling being distributed under a false name or confusion nd is certainly no worse than distributing the Registered ones that I would 
ust as soon toss the second or third year I've seen them bloom.
hat is likely the root cause of much of the problem we have occuring today. 

Original message:-------

feel that there is danger in releasing to the public seedlings that though
beautiful are not quite worthy of registration and introduction.
irst:  One goal as hybridizers should be to improve irises.  If we allow
ven slightly inferior cultivars to be diseminated-among the public, we are
ot being faithful to that goal.   Second:  These nameless seedlings are
ertain to become confused with look alike named varieties to the detriment
f the named varieties and to the people who buy them misnamed.
know we all have favorite seedlings like this.  I always say, "I'll keep
t until I need the room for something better". When I am excited about the 
better one, I find it doesn't hurt to let the lesser one go.
rancelle Edwards
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