Re: :HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings)
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: :HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings)
  • From: a*@aol.com
  • Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 21:01:56 -0400
There are dozens of beautiful pink irises in commerce, yet people keep
introducing pink irises each year.  Some people feel the need/pressure to
offer a new pink each year.  Some people introduce and name irises for people
they love or care about--grandchildren, club members and friends!  Are these
irises always an advancement in pink iris?  Not necessarily.  People pay their
fees and register their irises.  They couldn't please all of us if they tried.

<<beautiful pink iris >>


When I buy a new introduction, I do so with full knowledge that it may not be
as described.  I get a bit frustrated when some die before they bloom.  I
don't even get to see if they are as described.  Others just don't live up to
my expectations.   I want clean, sharp, supersaturated colors and crisp
bi-colors.  Alas, the form is different, the standards flop, or the color just
isn't right.  Most often they just don't grow over 18 inches tall!

Any living product is a gamble.  Sometimes an expensive gamble.  Often, I only
get one or two "winners" per season.  But, like I said . . . I'm hard to
please.  After all, I'm looking for possible mates for my babies.  I'm most
interested if they carry rebloom genes.

In the rebloom game, true advancement is a tricky critter and hard to obtain.
We keep trying for cultivars to rival the everblooming rose, but it hasn't
happened yet.  Of course, I'm referring to colder climate rebloom.

Where is spring when you need it?

Betty W. . . "Only those who dare to dream can make a dream come true."
KY Zone 6





-----Original Message-----
From: autmirislvr@aol.com
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Sun, Jun 20, 2010 3:10 pm
Subject: Re: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings)


Points of discussion:
Hybidizers DO share both plants and pollen long before a new breakthrough
hits
he market.  That is how children of said "wonder" hit the market so soon.
ome of the plants used in breeding are never introduced--(sibling of blah,
lah)
Length of bloom season can be achieved in several ways.  Substance is great.
t's also possible to have stalks, within a clump, that initiate one at a time
hroughout the season, and the blooms on the stalk may also open one or two
looms at a time.  It's possible for a mature iris clump to have many days, or
ossibly many weeks of bloom.  A good show bench iris may not be a good garden
ris based on the timing of individual blooms.
Of course, rebloom is another method of extending bloom season!  One of my
avorites, but I'll take them all.
Branching?  Is this garden branching or show bench branching?  A show branch
ust only shine on one day, whereas the garden variety must hold it's own
gainst others for a much longer time period.  This is especially true of tall
earded irises.
I find myself looking for show bench branching on all of my seedlings
although
 know that my rebloomers will rarely make a show bench based on the timing of
ost iris shows.  I'd be better off looking for branching that shows well in
he garden, but old habits are hard to break.
During my formative years as an iris hybridizer, I grew a beautiful Blue(ish)
ris that was tall with a consistent branching problem.  It always grew the
iddle branch at a quarter turn on the stalk rather than opposite sides of the
ranch!  It was a gorgeous bloom but most felt it should never have been
ntroduced, based on the branching deficiency.  Yet, this iris would get a
lue ribbon on the bench because it grew as introduced.
Paul when you speak of proportion are you refering to both stalk and bloom
roportion and/or balance?
Maybe the main difference of opinions lies in bloom preference?  Open
tandards or domed standards?  Heavy haft marks or none at all?  Pastel colors
r heavily saturated dark colors?  Ruffles, lace or tailored edges?  Plicatas,
elfs, bitones, etc.?  I love variegatas!
If I buy an iris that is touted as an improvement and it dies for me within 2
ears, is it truly an improvement?  Or should it be considered inferior?
Which irises bred from Edith Wolford were truly an improvement over EW?
everal may have been considered a success by their breeder/creator, depending
n their goals!  Use the same criteria with any of the other irises heavily
sed in breeding.
For an Edith Wolford cross to be a success for me it would have to be as is,
ut healthy here in KY.  It has height, color, branching (most of the time)
nd all other qualities I like!  Unfortunately, it doesn't live here.  Except
n my huge pot, of course.  It lives, but still doesn't bloom every year.  It
s still in some of my seedlings.  It passes on the bitone effect, height and
ood branching in plants that live.  Most seedlings also have triple
erminals.  Just  because an iris bombs here doesn't mean it's children will
o the same.
Many of the Romantic Evening children appeal to me more than RE, but who can
uy all 93 of them?  (I also have children of RE, but it is long gone)
There are many irises introduced each year that don't appeal to me, yet, I'm
ure most furthered some goal of the hybridizer.  It's quite possible that I'd
ay "ugh" to your (generic your) favorite iris, but that doesn't make them
nferior.
How about that beautiful pink iris that looks just like two dozen (hundred)
ther beautiful pink irises?  Was it folly to introduce it?  Or did it exhibit
omething special or new to the hybridizer?
Just saying that much of what we see is simply "the eye of the beholder."
his is one of the reasons for National Display Gardens and iris photos!

etty Wilkerson . . . thanks for your time.
Y Zone 6



--Original Message-----
rom: Paul Archer <pharcher@mindspring.com>
o: iris@hort.net
ent: Sun, Jun 20, 2010 12:44 pm
ubject: Re: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings)

I personally select for plants with the following (since I breed TB's, MTB's,
termediates and Arilbreds)...
irst off, each cross has a particular goal for a flower characteristic.  If a
ower meets that goal or something unique shows up then the following is
aluated...
Flowers that have good bloom substance (more then two days of life).  I would
ways like 3 days but that is
lim pickin's.
pright foliage
isease resistance (as well as blue-green foliage)
talks that do not need staking
ood branching (not as easy as it might seem)
t least two increases to bloom size
roper proportion (regardless of class).
ud count of at least 8 with a goal of triple sockets and/or lower branches
ebloom if possible
irst year seedlings are evaluated for color and general growth.  The second
ar is make it or break it unless foul weather has played a role in general.
 any one or two of those qualities is missing in a seedlng (but the flower
st be exceptional) it is selected as breeding stock.  Any more than two
aults
 usually tossed. I do have one plant that is an exception to that rule and I
ll never, ever distribute it.  Once I get what I want from it it will get
ssed.
rilbreds are something else altogether and have their own set of issues, but
milarly judged.
-----Original Message-----
rom: autmirislvr@aol.com
ent: Jun 20, 2010 12:14 PM
o: iris@hort.net
ubject: [iris]:HYB:Goals:Preferences(was Limbo Seedlings)
This is a side issue to the Limbo Seedling thread.
So many things to consider.
<<second class seedlings>>
An improvement might be a taller specimen, more branches, longer bloom
eason,
eeper colors, etc..What are your goals and how do they mesh with what the
est of us like?

ould some of the hybridizers on this list please give us some idea of what
hey consider an advancement?  What are your goals?  What are you trying to
mprove in the irises you breed?   Specifically, what would it take to be a
first class" seedling in your garden?
Each hybridizer has their own goals.  To an extent, an advancement or
better"
ris is in the eye of the beholder.
Feed Back, please!
Betty Wilkerson . . . extremely fussy about colors and patterns.
ridge In Time Irises
Y Zone 6

----Original Message-----
rom: Dana Brown <ddbro@sbcglobal.net>
o: iris@hort.net
ent: Sun, Jun 20, 2010 8:56 am
ubject: RE: [iris] Re: Limbo Seedlings

aul,
  Just imagine how much worse it would be if all the seconds and culls
re floating around out there as well.  If your "limbo" seedlings are
tter than so many of the current intros, then kudos to you for being a
scerning hybridizer/irisarian!!  Why would you want to lower your
andards at this point?
  As far as all the tracking and record keeping....well, given the
mber of misnamed or no name iris already out there I guess we already know
at not everyone keeps good records.
  Bottom line for me as a hybridizer, no, I don't want to send my
cond class seedlings out in public where they might get released into
neral population.
ana
ana D. Brown
S, ASI, MIS, RIS, SPIS, TBIS
levil Iris Gardens & Kennels
w.malevil-iris.com
bbock, TX  79403
ne 7 USDA, Zone 10 Sunset
bro@sbcglobal.net
ome of:
rrimac's Amarula CGC TDI
. Merrimac the Agean CD, RA, CGC, TDI
----Original Message-----
om: owner-iris@hort.net [o*@hort.net] On Behalf Of Paul
cher
nt: Saturday, June 19, 2010 6:33 PM
: Iris chat forum
bject: [iris] Re: Limbo Seedlings
 agree with that as well.  However, considering the sheer amount of
gistered plants I have paid good money for and turned out to be complete
ap for various reasons and most of my "limbo" seedlings surpass the ones I
ught, and by that standard maybe I should be Registering a whole lot more.
so some Registered plants make very poor parents once I get seeds from
em, yet they were Registered by the Hybridizer anyway.  The assumption
at a Registered plant is a worthy parent is mute.  But sorry to burst your
bble but the danger of releasing poor plant has already been surpassed
merous times and is now and endemic problem, yet may great cultivars are
ming from these very plants through selection efforts.  The difference is
e Hybridizer standard of which mine is very high.
t could also be said that those "limbo" seedlings that would be released
to this proposed program would need to be kept track of by the purchaser
d Hybridizer and not released as a cultivar for the sheer sake of
opagation purposes unless it has been evaluated by numerous people,
edback reported on, and the decision made by the Hybridizer to remove it
om "limbo" list and actually Registered.  Yes, that takes some work, but
at prevents the seedling being distributed under a false name or confusion
d is certainly no worse than distributing the Registered ones that I would
st as soon toss the second or third year I've seen them bloom.
at is likely the root cause of much of the problem we have occuring today.
Original message:-------
 feel that there is danger in releasing to the public seedlings that though
eautiful are not quite worthy of registration and introduction.
rst:  One goal as hybridizers should be to improve irises.  If we allow
en slightly inferior cultivars to be diseminated-among the public, we are
t being faithful to that goal.   Second:  These nameless seedlings are
rtain to become confused with look alike named varieties to the detriment
 the named varieties and to the people who buy them misnamed.
know we all have favorite seedlings like this.  I always say, "I'll keep
 until I need the room for something better".  When I am excited about the
etter one, I find it doesn't hurt to let the lesser one go.
ancelle Edwards
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