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Tony;
My 'thoughts' on esculenta still hold
true (for me I hasten to add - am not trying to gain the truth high ground!);
the real problem is, as ever, that esculenta has been cultivated (or at
least managed) for a VERY long time and that without some pretty robust
molecular work utilizing genes to investigate the phylogenetic as well as culton
level it is exceedingly difficult to devise a reliable taxonomy. Colocasia
bicolor is almost certainly not distinguishable from
affinis.
'Illustris' would shoehorn into
antiquorum.
As ever
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From:
t*@plantdelights.com
To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:47
AM
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] C. 'Fontanesii' id
- Pete's id
Pete:
Maybe this discussion can prompt some molecular
interest in colocasia. I can certainly see how Colocasia affinis and C.
heterochroma fit within either the species C. fallax, or something on the same
branch of the family tree. I am not familiar with C. bicolor. C.
'Illustis' and C. 'Fontanesii' look like much more distant relatives.
Back in April 2003, you mentioned "From a taxonomic perspective I tend
to apply the respective names 1. var.antiquorum, 2. var.
esculenta, and 3. var. aquatilis." I assumed from this that C. esculenta
var. antiquorum included the cultivar that we know as 'Illustris'. Is
this still your thinking, or has new information moved your thoughts in a
different direction?
Tony Avent
Plant Delights Nursery @
Juniper Level Botanic Garden
9241 Sauls Road
Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA
Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F
Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F
USDA Hardiness Zone 7b
email t*@plantdelights.com
website http://www.plantdelights.com
phone 919 772-4794
fax 919 772-4752
"I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent
Peter
Boyce wrote:
Tony,
I am not saying it is 100%, all I can say is
that types plants of heterochroma and bicolor that I have seen in China fall
pretty incontrovertibly into fallax sens. lat. They are all notable for the
pencil-diameter stolons that do not branch much, the thin-textured leaves
that are often (but by not means always) dark-variegated and the rather dull
yellow to prurpe-brwon-tinged inflorescences.
Into this stew you need to add C. affinis
which in nature is readily identifiable by always grwoing on near-vertical
mud waterfalls and river banks with flowing water and in nature and
cultivation by the very slender (almost wire-thin) much branching stolons.
Colocasia affinis is also USUALLY of much smaller stature than
fallax sens lat. although big plants of afiinis can be
larger and as robust as small-end fallax while large end
fallax can be mistaken as rather weakend
esculenta.
As to mlecular analyses of this group, as far
as I am aware nothing is underway.
Very best
Peter
-----
Original Message -----
From:
t*@plantdelights.com
To:
aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
Sent:
Friday, October 12, 2007 12:40 AM
Subject:
Re: [Aroid-l] C. 'Fontanesii' id - Pete's id
Pete:
Say it ain't so. C. 'Illustris' is a
selection of C. fallax? Are you also saying that C. heterochroma now
gets dumped into C. fallax also? Obviously, I must have slept while
the taxonomists worked. Has someone completed the DNA-based phylogeny of
colocasia yet?
Tony Avent
Plant Delights Nursery @
Juniper Level Botanic Garden
9241 Sauls Road
Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA
Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F
Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F
USDA Hardiness Zone 7b
email t*@plantdelights.com
website http://www.plantdelights.com
phone 919 772-4794
fax 919 772-4752
"I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent
Peter
Boyce wrote:
Tony,
I have seen rather a few similar but
different things labeled as Illustris. But my feeling is that this is
C. fallax (including C. bicolor and C.
heterochroma).
Pete
-----
Original Message -----
From:
t*@plantdelights.com
To:
aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
Sent:
Tuesday, October 09, 2007 3:42 AM
Subject:
Re: [Aroid-l] C. 'Fontanesii' id - Pete's id
Pete:
Before I delve into what I'm sure is some
great bedtime reading, do you remember where Colocasia 'Illustris'
landed. This one never seemed to quite fit comfortably into C.
esculenta.
Tony Avent
Plant Delights Nursery @
Juniper Level Botanic Garden
9241 Sauls Road
Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA
Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F
Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F
USDA Hardiness Zone 7b
email t*@plantdelights.com
website http://www.plantdelights.com
phone 919 772-4794
fax 919 772-4752
"I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent
Peter
Boyce wrote:
Tony,
There are a number of new taxa involved in this complex. I have seen some of
the mss (reviewed a couple) but not all. The refs are:
Colocasia gaoligongensis H.Li & C.L.Long -- Feddes Repert. 110(5-6): 423.
1999 (IK)
Colocasia gongii C.L.Long & H.Li -- Feddes Repert. 111(7-8): 559. 2000 (IK)
Colocasia lihengiae C.L.Long & K.M.Liu -- in Bot. Bull. Acad. Sin. (Taipei)
42(4): 313 (2001). (IK)
Colocasia tibetensis J.T.Yin -- Ann. Bot. Fenn. 43(1): 53 (-56; fig. 1).
2006 [13 Mar 2006]
Colocasia yunnanensis C.L.Long & X.Z.Cai -- Ann. Bot. Fenn. 43(2): 139
(-142; fig. 1). 2006 [26 Apr 2006]
In addition there are a couple of obscure names that need to be accounted
for:
Colocasia fontanesii Schott -- Oesterr. Bot. Wochenbl. 4: 409. 1854 (IK)
Colocasia formosana Hayata -- Icon. Pl. Formosan. 8: 133. 1919 [25 Mar 1919]
(IK)
Colocasia konishii Hayata -- Icon. Pl. Formosan. 8: 134. 1919 [25 Mar 1919]
(IK)
Colocasia kotoensis Hayata -- Icon. Pl. Formosan. 5: 247. 1915 [25 Nov 1915]
(IK)
Colocasia tonoimo Nakai -- in Ic. Pl. As. Or. iii. 231 (1940). (IK)
Very best
Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Avent" t*@plantdelights.com
To: "Discussion of aroids" aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] C. 'Fontanesii' id - Pete's id
Pete:
I checked the flowers on our C. 'Fontanesii' and indeed the spathes do
open quite a bit wider than the C. esculenta cultivars that we grow.
Can you direct us to an article about the C.gaoligongenis/lihengiae
complex. We found plants in Vietnam that seem to resemble C.
gaoligongensis, but these look nothing like C. 'Fontanesii'. Please,
tell us more.
Tony Avent
Plant Delights Nursery @
Juniper Level Botanic Garden
9241 Sauls Road
Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA
Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F
Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F
USDA Hardiness Zone 7b
email t*@plantdelights.com
website http://www.plantdelights.com
phone 919 772-4794
fax 919 772-4752
"I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least
three times" - Avent
Peter Boyce wrote:
Tony,
I am pretty sure that the 'Fontanesii' cultivar of C. esculenta is
somewhere
in the gaoligongenis/lihengiae complex defined by glossy leaves and a
loosely stolonifeous habit combined with a short deep yellow spathe that
opens rather wide.
Very best
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Avent" t*@plantdelights.com
To: "Discussion of aroids" aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] C. 'Fontanesii' id - Pete's id
Peter:
I almost missed your note about C. 'Fontanesii' not being a form of C.
esculenta. Sorry to open a can of worms, but if it's not C. esculenta,
what is it and why?
Tony Avent
Plant Delights Nursery @
Juniper Level Botanic Garden
9241 Sauls Road
Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA
Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F
Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F
USDA Hardiness Zone 7b
email t*@plantdelights.com
website http://www.plantdelights.com
phone 919 772-4794
fax 919 772-4752
"I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least
three times" - Avent
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